• Questions

  • Is signing up a contract with webnovel really that bad?

(sorry this was a double post as the forum claimed the earlier post did not go through). Though I have now taken advantage of it to include some thoughts on later posts to the one I replied to.

I just read what Dan_Ryder and Cultivator199 wrote and I believe they make many valid points which are in no way inconsistent with the basic fundamentals of read the contract fully (preferably with a lawyer conversant in employment contracts) and to take note of any and all clauses involved. Reading and being mindful of contracts and all the clauses are basic fundamentals. And assuming that the contract will be enforced. Whether it is fair or not depends on your own circumstances and expectations. But do not go into a contract in ignorance. A fair deal for person A, may not be a fair deal to person B. And yes, not everyone is going to be the next JK Rowling. But be mindful of what you are willing to accept and what you are not willing to accept. And the only way you can do this is to read the whole contract and take it seriously in its entirety. Nothing in there is a joke. If it is, it would have been removed. The only exceptions are joke contracts that are not legally binding. Contracts with any legal companies are not joke contracts. All the points in them require you to read and understand to make an informed decision.

      ThyUnknownSaint Sorry, but everytime I post the link it seems to come up as a picture instead. Not sure why. But you should be able to do a google search of the title ("Upper Tier Qidian Author Ji on New Contracts"). It comes up first in the list of results on google search if you do that. I cannot find CKtalon's source but that is possibly because I do not have the title of the post to google search. Its probably true though as it seems to indicate that the most controversial points were removed, as opposed to a capitalist company providing more money than they feel they need to. Its highly common for negotiations to start with a worse offer and then "give in" to some sort of middle ground. Qidian (QI) possibly just did not anticipate or worry too much about the backlash of the initial attempt. Though I am obliged to point out that the last sentence is my personal opinion (not concrete fact) and the second last statement, while a basic negotiation technique, is not necessarily what QI intended to do from the beginning.

            Oh look @mng with the non-author advice again. He googled fu'd his way here guys make way. He told you the contract was bad with long block paragraphs. But he didn't bother to tell you how you could make money off your novel though, which is your main issue. His advice is worth less than dirt.

              mng

              You see, as much as being wary of legal documents is a good thing, in my native language, we have this funny distinction. Letter of law, and spirit of law. The first part, is what's written in the documents that decide HOW the law is enforced. You can often find crazy sht out there, but against all common sense - it's still there.

              And then there is something called spirit of the law - basically, what does this law means in reality. How it will be realistically enforced! You can have the harshes law that condemns you to the death for possessing a lollipop, but if no cop takes it seriously, you are free to eat the candy as often as you want, just keep in mind to not burn some cities or the gov would FORCE the law enforcement to act seriously.

              It's that simple. Just like @Dan_Ryder mentioned, Qidian puts a gun to author's heads, but it will never fire. Why?
              1st: - enforcing the clauses of the contract would have to go through international court, as all international contracts have to go through a medium
              2nd - actually using those questionable clauses would mean burning their own goose laying golden eggs. People are willing to work for them and write for them only as long as they feel comfortable with them.
              3rd - There are many many topics out there, from the bugs, through the different features all the way to the constant growth of the site and how to cope with it, that takes the time of all WN staff. If you really think they can give an F about any particular author leaving, writing something that might be unnice to China or anything like that,... They would either shadow-ban or remove him. First meaning that said author is banned from any form of promotion, second one happening when one breached the contract by posting stolen or CP content as his paid work.

              Overall, I'm not telling you to not be wary about such stuff. I remember how crazy I was over it back when I signed my first chapter. But now that I have a first-hand experience on how it works, I can sum it up all with just one sentence.

              WHO THE FUQ DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, TO ASSUME THAT YOU ARE WORTH FOR WN TO RISK THEIR ENTIRE BUISNESS ONLY TO BULLY YOU SOME?

                  MotivatedSloth I'm not the OP or anyone else who has been writing on webnovel and worried about a contract. I read this topic out of curiosity and then gave my advice stemming from my knowledge as a legal professional. You then decided to personally attack me. You assumed I'm a writer, assumed I want to write for webnovel, assumed I think i would be a great success, etc. You're completely strawmanning me to discredit my advice. The only reason to personally attack me like this is because you can't refute what I said. Honestly I'm confused why you're lashing out at me and others...over what? Different interpretation of a contract?

                  All I said is that IF they wanted to they could enforce the clauses in the contract without going to court first. They have control of the platform and would at least appear to be within their legal rights. Then, if an author didn't like what was happening, it would be on the author to file suit to get an injunction or render those clauses unenforceable. The company does not have to go to an international court to ask permission like you make it sound. Companies enforce contracts all the time or even go further and straight up wrong individuals. The individual then has to fight back. That's all I said. I was correcting you since you made it sound like the company could never do something without going to court first. I didnt even say they WOULD do those things, simply that they could.

                  In the end I find it ironic you said I'm not an adult as part of your personal attacks. Adults don't personally attack each other over a simple difference of opinion like this.

                  Since you mentioned I never backed up "my side" I'll give my side. I think both sides make good points. As with any contract, you want to read it thoroughly and consult a legal professional to make sure you can live with the terms. As for the webnovel contract, it has pros and cons. The pros are the guaranteed money, the exposure to a large fanbase, ability to still get fan support on the side. The cons are losing the IP and the risk of losing control of the novel. At the end of the day any route one goes has pros and cons; whether that's trying to get something traditionally published, going e-book style through Amazon or other e-book vendors, or blogging and patreoning. I think it's up to each author to decide the route they personally want to go. My only real input in this topic was regarding the legal process and what a company COULD do to an author. That's all.

                  I hope you have a good day Mr. Sloth and realize I'm not out to attack you or Webnovel.

                      Aby55
                      I find it strange that you are a real legal professional discussing a contract but never bothered to explain the difference between De Jure and De Facto. The first thing a legal professional would do when giving advice for a boiler plate company contract would be to investigate the legal precedent regarding the contract to give advice.

                      What are the standards the company has set when executing this boilerplate contract?

                      De Facto webnovel has never screwed over an author with the contract, but there are some strange clauses that could affect you De Jure.

                          Dan_Ryder Imo there's no point explaining the difference between de jure and de facto in this setting. I'm confused as to why you would bring that up. Usually that distinction is made for things like segregation. The terminology of de facto is usually used when there was a problem with creating something like a contract, corporation, or marriage. Maybe they teach law differently in your country, idk. If you are indeed correct that they've never enforced certain clauses, then that's certainly relevant information. But it is also not relevant to my point.

                          You are right that the first thing one would do is to research precedents. But that's if one were hired or writing an article or the like. I'm commenting on a forum. I think there's confusion as well since you mention me commentint on the contract. I didnt even read the contract or talk about any of its clauses. I don't have a client asking me to help with their IP or contract dispute with webnovel. Again, I was simply commenting that in general a company acts as it will and the individual then has to fight back if they dont like it. That's it. I saw someone talking about the legal process and how that would constrain a corporation's actions and I found that analysis did not reflect my understanding. I was not analyzing the contract nor seeking to explain the entirety of international contract law. Nor was I researching who would win a dispute. Im simply talking about the most basic realities of the process.

                          Btw if you read my previous reply you'll see I advise prospective authors to consult a legal professional. At that point that legal professional would do the research to see how the contract or similar contracts have been treated and see what the precedents are.

                            ThyUnknownSaint heres the links to that reddit post

                            MotivatedSloth I'm sorry to bother to ask this especially knowing that the post MNG is referencing to is out of date but what differences are there between the complaints put forth from that proposed contract and the complaints that we currently have here on webnovel about its contract. all the complaints from that post are valid when applied to either site from what I have heard. for instance

                            1st copyright: all works on webnovel that are premium are owned by webnovel because to get contacted/ go premium the author has to hand over the copyright.

                            2nd on free reading: this site definitely doesn't have the same problem as they do in China with legal pirate sites but it does share the problem of having any revenue produced from ads being taken by webnovel which is unreasonable. luckly they removed ad watching entirely as it really wasn't a good revenue source even when all of it was being taken by webnovel. as noted in your posted https://forum.webnovel.com/d/39823-alternative-options-for-locked-chapters/2

                            this site does have an illegal piracy problem but what paid content on the internet doesn't. (I'm shocked at how much those sites do take and how many there are literally every single time I go google for a books fandom page there's a new pirate site there its a serious problem)

                            3rd Copyright Revenue Sharing: don't want to get into that can of worms seeing as no one i have seen has brought it up yet and I don't want to get sued. luckily, currently, it doesn't apply to any original works from webnovels but the potial is there if the preconditions are meet.

                            mng what do you think of my argument i think it was a good add on to your point.

                                    Dan_Ryder They are mostly long block paragraphs, but please read them before replying to them rather than imagining what I wrote and then replying to your own imagination. This is the real world, not the one you are imagining in your head. To help you improve and not fall for this straw man fallacy again, please refer to the following site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man. It will help you make a better argument and help you find actually problems with what other people write.

                                      MotivatedSloth Well argued point. I would just be more wary. It does seem on the surface that a number of these clauses are not worth being enforced by webnovel. And I personally believe you make a decent argument for it. However, it neglects how much pressure can be put onto a signatory to comply with them having a literal signed written agreement on them. It also neglects the fact that sometimes the companies might do things that initially seems illogical and just because you don't have the full picture. Music companies sued some relatively poor individuals for pirating music. It was not cost-effective and I believe it did not help reduce piracy significantly. They still did it though. How can you in all honesty say that another company won't resort to legal action to enforce something even though it costs them more than its worth? Human history is literally littered by bad decisions that almost any idiot could realise was was a mistake but was made anyway. Especially when you are not one of the decision makers who will determine whether webnovel chooses to enforce the clauses they specifically put into their contracts.

                                      @Aby55's posts imo make several good points that are also worth considering. Me copying what he wrote, I also hope you have a good day and realise that what we write is about making informed decisions with the appropriate information.

                                          ATCkit Makes sense to me. Though I have not gone through the whole contract and I am sure there are other clauses you need to consider. For example, there are some other points I recall being mentioned like a minimum word count per month. These other clauses are worth looking into, because maybe you don't want to be held to a minimum. Maybe you like the flexibility of having an off-month or a going back and editing-month or creating a plot outline for future arcs. Or maybe you have advanced chapters for patreon supporters and are not sure you can keep that supply sustainable and also meet the minimum requirements while maintaining your commitment to these patreon supporters who might be giving you more financial support than the company. And that is just one of the clauses.

                                          TL:DR version: Consider each and every clause of this contract and see if it is something you are comfortable with. Maybe the example I gave would actually be a plus in your mind as maybe you are the type of person who thrives with this external pressure? However, maybe there is a clause that has not been mentioned in this post that will trip you up in the future (e.g. morality clause, or if you want another author to "inherit" and continue your novel but webnovel does not allow it).

                                          As mentioned in earlier posts, it depends on what you are willing to accept. If I was considering a contract with webnovel I would:

                                          1) read through the ENTIRE contract, preferably with a lawyer;
                                          2) determine if you are comfortable with ALL of the clauses; and
                                          3) if you are serious about doing this for money, check out the competing sites (e.g. Penana, Wattpad, RoyalRoad, etc.) and see if they might be able to offer you something you prefer. Though how you make money on those sites is slightly different from webnovel.

                                          Whatever you choose, you can then be assured that it was the best option available to you at the time. Hope this helps and sorry it was not more concise.

                                              mng advice still worth less than dirt. Even giving incorrect information now.

                                              • mng replied to this.

                                                  mng That's an excellent point. I've personally seen companies spend $3 million to defend a lawsuit but wouldn't offer more than $40k in a settlement. Makes absolutely no sense, but like you said: people are often illogical.

                                                      Dan_Ryder Read the post first. You replying without reading could be why you cannot understand it.

                                                          Aby55 Yes, and sometimes companies make seemingly logical decisions that turn out to be bad due to having insufficient information. Not a perfect example but I believe most would agree that Harry Potter being rejected by other publishers was bad business decision by said publishers.

                                                          And apologies for the late reply. I have no idea how I missed your reply from both my notifications and my own two eyes viewing the screen. Sorry about that. It was not intentional.

                                                            Dan_Ryder While apologising about other mistakes I made, I guess I should also apologise for assuming you also did not read this post just because you did not read my other posts before replying to it. Can you point out any incorrect information? I believe today has provided a few more to my unfortunately huge list of mistakes I have made just recently.

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