As a somewhat experienced writer from China I find it very interesting to see how Yuewen Group is expanding its business into the international market and how you guys view its products and business model. I got the impression that It's a rather new thing around here, although the "Internet literature industry"--since it's so new you guys don't even have a proper name for this business, I'm just gonna directly translate it from the Chinese term--has developped in China for more than 15 years and is quite mature, fully-grown and saturated (partly the reason Webnovel came to exist, I guess).

So I started an introduction thread independently to talk about the basic knowledge of this area: https://forum.webnovel.com/d/26863-web-novel-101-a-brief-intro-to-online-literature-industry/3, and again if you are considering a contract with WebNovel, I would strongly recommend you to read this intro first. On top of that, you guys have any questions about the content in this intro, or something unanswered in there, just post it here and I'm happy to share my insights :D

    ThyUnknownSaint Wow this is quite personal XD Yes I have written 4 books on platfroms like Webnovel in China, but unfortunately I'm not the big-hits, like not bad but not too successful either :/ Especially in a commercial sense. My editors always complained that with all my skills and writing quality I just don't want to write the stuff they wanted me to--the stuff that the market wanted, but I simply don't care XD I'm more of a writer of classic novels rather than popular ones, especially those I considered to be tasteless and vulgar cliches. I'm gonna go frenzy if someone said that's what a successful writer should work on >:c

    But at least I've been in the system for like 6 years and I do know a lot of people, some of whom are considered famous XD And I've been to one of the "big gatherings" in the whole industry, too, which is maybe an amazingly long time considering I'm only 21 right now. So I when I say I say this from experience, I say it from experience o((>ω< ))o

      Fiona_Singer ah my bad, didn’t think it was personal. You said to ask so I bit the bullet haha.
      Dang did your editors force you to write stuff? That sounds harsh. To not lose your way as a writer, you have my respect for that.
      But wow sounds really cool, what do you do in those big gatherings? I wish I had your wealth in experience, hopefully Webnovel will someday have something big like that?

        ace_cap I was writing a review so sorry about late reply XD Well this is a very complex question to answer, but let me clarify a few points first: in real life most relationships aren't like that--at least not in that exaggerating way--but there is indeed a general inclination of ideas like that about relationships and sex. And this inclination does not exist just in China, but also in Japan and Korea too from my understanding, but it's probably more typical and obivious from where I come from. I presumed it's because the cultures of the three countries are to some degree very similar and Japanese and Korean cultures--not meaning to deny the uniqueness of them---were historically under a big and long influence of the Chinese one. E.g. You can also see this phenomenon in the Japanese pornography, especially anime (I guess it's because in anime you can do things you can't in reality), that the male is raping and insulting female repeatedly in ways that are--probably beyond even the "unacceptible" level in western people's eyes--perverted and pathological, while the female was depicted to be a slave to male's sexual ability and her own lust, wanting for more of that shxt.

        If you found using porn as an example here is not very precise, a friend of mine who's fond of Japanese culture showed me once a Japanese reality tv show, where the male is singing in Karaoke to win a high score for a cash prize, while a woman from Kabuki would do a hand job for him, and smile proudly to say how they worship male genitals and how honoured they are to be of service. As for in Korea, I believe not a long time ago, a witness of Jang Ja-yeon case was brought to court to make statements to the judge about the unjust treatment her friend suffered, who was an Korean actress that committed suicide in 2009 after a long period of violent, secret sexual service forced by her company to Korean businessmen and politicians. If you want to know the details maybe just google it, I'm simply too disgusted to list them over here and it will lead me too far away from the topic.

        Back to your orginal question, I guess strict governmental presence seems to contradict with this wantoness in sex (which is more or less the case for all the three countries mentioned), but it will make sense once you think about it: the more you surpress, the more it will repel, and in a way that is unhealthy, and in the extreme case of these 3 countries, whose cultures have been avoiding--even depicating sometimes--sex for hundreds of years, it will be a very stubborn illness.

        However I presume you are more confused about why many women seem to not resist, but even support and enjoy it to some degree--they won't romanticize and normalize it in novels if they don't like it. In my opinion, it is because the influence of that type of gender/sex culture is so profound and vast that it's already imprinted in their heads and they don't even realize it's wrong, and they already built up their self values around it: e.g. they might actually think that by succeeding an abusive relationship with a socially and sexually competent alpha male, they "conquered" a difficult man with their "female charm", and the cruelty of this guy to others (and previously to her) will just add up their confidence of their own..."beauty" or "uniqueness"(and it works especially well when the male is rigid to other women but desired the heroin strongly alone).

        Yep. That's my psychoanalysis of this weird trend in novels∠( ᐛ 」∠)_It's not really CCP's fault--however you take it, chairman Mao showed support of female rights and female presence in the army--and I feel like by publishing those strict bans of sexual contents on novels the government partly intends to stop this trend. But I'm already wordy enough on one subject so let's stop before it turns to a heated discussion about feminism. Besides, it's getting better through time--which is maybe the only way to cure this kind of cultural diseases--and many of younger generations are fighting for it, too. Not everyone is like that. Me, for example :D

          ThyUnknownSaint Well, for most people, relationship-building, trying to befriend with some famous novelists. Chinese people are generally big at relationship-building even at occasions that it shouldn't be taken into account. Personally I didn't like it--you expected writers to be inspirational, but instead most of them are just businessmen, and not the good type. But I think if Webnovel had one it would be more interesting∠( ᐛ 」∠)_At least you get to meet people from different countries.

          Usually in China Online Literature publishers will hold a big, half-business-half-leisure annual gathering to invite writers to attend. Try to picture people sitting in spa pool talking about business. But of course you would have to be famous and successful enough to be invited, which will obviously make you feel classified and prejudiced, so if WN cares pls be advised: either you hold a event that's intended for all, or don't do it at all. Chinese people may be used to and tolerant about this, but if it happens in western countries it's gonna be scandalous∠( ᐛ 」∠)_

            Fiona_Singer I’m relieved to know not everyone like that. I do think there’s good romance webnovels out there without that type of relationships/characters, do you know any? Oops I’m getting distracted haha.

            Fiona_Singer
            Ah just like in wns—building connections. I thought it’d be a party or something fun. I’d love to interact with all kinds of people, so yeah it’ll be scandalous xD. Thanks for replying~ It’s all very interesting stuff

              ThyUnknownSaint BTW mind if I ask are you from an English-speaking country? (:з)∠)Because I'm writing novel in English for 1st time on this site now so I'm bit of unsure if my understanding about the grammar is right, and I'd like some opinions from English native speakers XDDD Little bit OOT in this thread but unfortunately I can't message you directly in this website :( Here's the link if you would want to read it (shamelessly) https://www.webnovel.com/book/14316549305962705 XDDD

                Fiona_Singer Thanks for your insight. I find that the comparisons with the Jang Ja Yeon case and hentai aren't exactly apt since the first case is considered a dirty secret and the second is literally "perversion" when translated, while the depictions in the novels here are more mainstream and not exactly considered shameful. Correct me if I misunderstood, but from what I gather from the rest of your answer, these tropes are indeed considered acceptable in China. It is quite disappointing especially since it means it'll be even less likely that Webnovel will listen to the complaints of international readers about being flooded with these types of stories. That was basically my motivation for asking. Thanks for your time.

                  ace_cap Ahh the two examples are probably too extreme and not in the same area. However, if you are talking about similar novel tropes, they are still indeed very common in those two countries, though there are just too many so I can't exactly pick out a typical example in an instant. I just used these two cases to state my point of "it's a social, cultural phenomenon" XDDD if you can get my point.

                  As for your worries I'm not quite sure. It really depends on the strategy of the parent company of WN in China: do they want a long-term development in the international market, or to them WN is just a quick cash cow to smooth the painful setbacks they've recently suffered in the domestic market :D I was pretty surprised myself when I first knew this but you international readers pay like 10 times more than Chinese web novel readers just for finishing an average novel, while the salary for writers on WN is far from proportionally higher than that of domestic writers, so they are really squeezing money out of you guys (and writers, too) heartlessly. Theoritically, they shouldn't be so careless about a market so lucrative, but who knows∠( ᐛ 」∠)_Chinese businessmen aren't generally so well educated compared to those in EU and NA countries (I'm studying in an European business school right now so I can strongly feel this difference), so they might just do stupid shxt, too, especially for Yuewen group (the parent company) who literally has zip international experience and WN is literally their first attempt.

                    Fiona_Singer So many others have pointed out that international prices are so much higher than what they pay in China. It makes a bit of sense since they do have to pay for translators in addition to the authors, but I'm not sure the amount it's jacked up to is justifiable. I guess Webnovel will just keep experimenting and pushing their luck to see how much "abuse" the international readers will tolerate. I'm saddened by what you said about the writers though. I guess it's too easy for Webnovel because many of these authors are very young and are just excited about the thought of getting paid to write -- something that was beyond possibility for most people until Webnovel came along. Several people have pointed out how bad the contract is but, well, somebody just made 10,000 dollars in a month so people will keep hoping that could be them in the future. Maybe when people see what you wrote they'd actually ask for higher pay and better treatment.

                    Anyway, regarding Webnovel's direction, based on what you've said so far and taking it in the context of what one of their reps has been saying, it does look like they will persist in what they're doing, thinking that it works in China and should work internationally. One of them actually called us infants. Haha. Oh well, I guess the market will show whether they're right or wrong. I do not condone piracy but I think Webnovel's recent moves have pushed people in that direction. I don't want Webnovel to fail, that's why I still complain here, but those who are fed up have already jumped ship.

                      ace_cap TBH it is no news how web novel writers are abused back in China. Those who became rich and famous are just idols to draw young people in (I was one of them, too), but the cold fact is some young writers even died on the path these websites tempted them into, either of suicide caused by mental conditions or sudden death caused by poor health. Many of them are forced both by Chinese readers who want fast, constant updates and editors who want to make the most out of them to keep writing, even when they are literally running out of inspirations or they have no time to sleep or eat, so it's just too much to bear for some of them that it costs their health and even life, and nobody seems to pay a huge attention to it so far. As you can imagine, these companies don't really listen to the complaints, so nobody ever speaks about the unreasonables anymore (because it's useless), and gradually many readers and editors in China somewhat just take it for granted and call you "infants" as if making complaints about this only means that you are a coward who don't work hard :D Even some writers who used to be through this and are now more successful will join the army of bullies.

                      It's probably OOT but I just somewhat remembered the unfortunate suffering of one of the writer friends I know. She was sentenced to be imprisoned for years (I don't remember exactly how long) solely because she wrote a gay love story with some sexual contents and printed it into several copies--it was not even a commercial, public release she was just sharing it with some fans--and even the printer shop who helped her got punished, too, under the crime of "distributing illegal contents", while at the same time true sexual offenders(especially male ones) are often just somehow forgiven by the public and detained only for months. The irony.∠( ᐛ 」∠)_

                        Fiona_Singer ace_cap You have taken the 'infants' out of context.

                        When I said 'infants', I was referring to how international readers of web novels are considered 'infants' in terms of exposure compared to the tropes in the Chinese web novel industry since the Chinese web novel industry has been around for nearly 20 years, while internationally, it has been around for less than 5 years. The troupes and writing style developed by the Chinese web novel scene is quite different from the traditional writing seen internationally. Hence, in terms of exposure to the various troupes available, international readers are 'infants.' Not mentally, physically, or any capacity.

                          Fiona_Singer With regards to your friend, isn't it more of a problem with the laws and government, and not necessarily the web novel industry?

                          And seriously, you are making it as if authors who wish to succeed are being forcefully chained to the desk to write. How many thousands of books have been eunuched in China? How many authors have switched identities to get a brand new try at writing? It's all free choice here. Even the god-level authors mention that they suffer from health problems from writing and ask for readers to pardon them. It's known by all that this isn't an easy job, but people still work hard at it. Some succeed, some don't. Is that even surprising?

                          It's the same as the entertainment industry. How many starlets try to make it big, and how much hard work do they need to put in to succeed? I'm sure you are well aware how much 'cleaner' the web novel industry is compared to the entertainment industry when it comes to undertable deals, etc.

                          It's not really abuse, but people working hard to succeed by their own free will. For example, as you said, you think it won't work out and quit. No one came to threaten you with force or the law to continue writing, right? If you would like to describe it, this is a tough industry to succeed, just as how many industries are.

                          With regards to price, it's pretty much supply and demand, along with the fact that China still isn't a very rich country (GDP per capita wise). Furthermore, the number of Chinese readers (in the hundreds of millions) already match close to the populations of most major countries, so it's quite hard to use economy of scale for the international market.

                            God I'm catching attentions∠( ᐛ 」∠)_That's not a good sign

                              CKtalon Very good point. Well, where you sit decides what you view, doesn't it?∠( ᐛ 」∠)_There's no end and no point of arguing who amongst us is right or wrong, I'm simply offering another perspective from a writer who's been in the system but not a rep of the website--which every user here deserves to have. That's what these people call freedom of speech, I guess? Though I admit, I'm very cynical.∠( ᐛ 」∠)_Always have lots of grudges.

                              Still, putting moral and legal arguments aside, in a pure business analysis sense, if my perspective is gaining support and agreement, and there are already lots of other scattered complaints about your system, it should at least sound an alarm to you guys.∠( ᐛ 」∠)_These people are your customers and customers are never here to "understand" how difficult it is to do your business, even if your hardships are true--they are here to take the service they think worthy of the price, and it's especially the case for people from EU and NA countries, which is your major market. Just saying, I'm not your management consultant anyway who am I to give advice. Just take it as some loser's complaints.∠( ᐛ 」∠)_

                              CKtalon As for the "infant" word...well, my post was talking about people I've met in China so it's not about you∠( ᐛ 」∠)_Still, again in a pure business sense, that is a bad choice for words. Though I know you are not a professional customer service staff, since you decided at that time to stand up and speak for your company, you should be aware that you are a representative, and even though you simply used it just as a metaphor and there was no intended insult, it's still very easy (and very natural, really) to be interpreted wrongly and to an extent, indicating that in your mind--which in this scenario now represents the company's mind--that customers need to be educated by you guys to know what they should read and do, which would cause misunderstanding.

                              Unless of course it's exactly you guys' plan∠( ᐛ 」∠)_I got a feeling that's what you guys have in mind, isn't it? From what I see, what you guys are doing here is you think because online literature industry is still brand new in international markets, so what you should do is customer education--introduce it to the users and "teach" them/let them learn on their own to use it in the Chinese way, or at least let's say the way you guys expect them to. It's quite a normal approach--customer education--if your business is INDEED A NEW ONE. Well, now that complainers like me start to appear, maybe you guys should think twice∠( ᐛ 」∠)_

                              In fact from what I stand, I think you guys should quit your mindset of "I'm creating a new industry in the market", because you are actually joining an existing area and competing, which is popular literature. Yeah I know they are mostly in the paper media, not in the internet media (which give you some advantage at this beginning stage, because people love new tech-savvy things :D) but THEY SERVE THE EXACT SAME FUNCTION AS THAT OF YOUR PRODUCTS, and mind you, they've been growing into a pretty mature shape (actually much more mature than your business model, might I say) and serving their function pretty well and customers are already very accustomed to that model and that preference of the products for a very long time, so you guys should at least consider you are competing with substitutions, and--like I said before--think again about the whole "customer education" thing∠( ᐛ 」∠)_Besides, who says there wouldn't be new entrants? I know Yuewen is probably the largest giant in this business, but there are other Chinese Internet big-heads who have already dabbled in your industry for quite some time, who can guarantee they wouldn't come in and take a slice. Gosh, I've been out of this for a long time I haven't paid attention to any development here, but for all I know, Tencent and NetEase can be possible players (If they haven't already). What can I say∠( ᐛ 」∠)_Welcome to the world.

                              Ahh I'm rumbling again. Probably because I have done too many business cases recently and it's becoming a habit of analyzing everything, couldn't help it especially when it comes to the area where I'm familiar with. You are probably wondering "what's this crazy bitch talking about"∠( ᐛ 」∠)_so I'm just gonna say sorry and quite analyzing. Ah, I'm just bored.∠( ᐛ 」∠)_

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