Webnovel.Forum

As a somewhat experienced writer from China I find it very interesting to see how Yuewen Group is expanding its business into the international market and how you guys view its products and business model. I got the impression that It's a rather new thing around here, although the "Internet literature industry"--since it's so new you guys don't even have a proper name for this business, I'm just gonna directly translate it from the Chinese term--has developped in China for more than 15 years and is quite mature, fully-grown and saturated (partly the reason Webnovel came to exist, I guess).

So I started an introduction thread independently to talk about the basic knowledge of this area: https://forum.webnovel.com/d/26863-web-novel-101-a-brief-intro-to-online-literature-industry/3, and again if you are considering a contract with WebNovel, I would strongly recommend you to read this intro first. On top of that, you guys have any questions about the content in this intro, or something unanswered in there, just post it here and I'm happy to share my insights :D

Fiona_Singer ah my bad, didn’t think it was personal. You said to ask so I bit the bullet haha.
Dang did your editors force you to write stuff? That sounds harsh. To not lose your way as a writer, you have my respect for that.
But wow sounds really cool, what do you do in those big gatherings? I wish I had your wealth in experience, hopefully Webnovel will someday have something big like that?

ace_cap I was writing a review so sorry about late reply XD Well this is a very complex question to answer, but let me clarify a few points first: in real life most relationships aren't like that--at least not in that exaggerating way--but there is indeed a general inclination of ideas like that about relationships and sex. And this inclination does not exist just in China, but also in Japan and Korea too from my understanding, but it's probably more typical and obivious from where I come from. I presumed it's because the cultures of the three countries are to some degree very similar and Japanese and Korean cultures--not meaning to deny the uniqueness of them---were historically under a big and long influence of the Chinese one. E.g. You can also see this phenomenon in the Japanese pornography, especially anime (I guess it's because in anime you can do things you can't in reality), that the male is raping and insulting female repeatedly in ways that are--probably beyond even the "unacceptible" level in western people's eyes--perverted and pathological, while the female was depicted to be a slave to male's sexual ability and her own lust, wanting for more of that shxt.

If you found using porn as an example here is not very precise, a friend of mine who's fond of Japanese culture showed me once a Japanese reality tv show, where the male is singing in Karaoke to win a high score for a cash prize, while a woman from Kabuki would do a hand job for him, and smile proudly to say how they worship male genitals and how honoured they are to be of service. As for in Korea, I believe not a long time ago, a witness of Jang Ja-yeon case was brought to court to make statements to the judge about the unjust treatment her friend suffered, who was an Korean actress that committed suicide in 2009 after a long period of violent, secret sexual service forced by her company to Korean businessmen and politicians. If you want to know the details maybe just google it, I'm simply too disgusted to list them over here and it will lead me too far away from the topic.

Back to your orginal question, I guess strict governmental presence seems to contradict with this wantoness in sex (which is more or less the case for all the three countries mentioned), but it will make sense once you think about it: the more you surpress, the more it will repel, and in a way that is unhealthy, and in the extreme case of these 3 countries, whose cultures have been avoiding--even depicating sometimes--sex for hundreds of years, it will be a very stubborn illness.

However I presume you are more confused about why many women seem to not resist, but even support and enjoy it to some degree--they won't romanticize and normalize it in novels if they don't like it. In my opinion, it is because the influence of that type of gender/sex culture is so profound and vast that it's already imprinted in their heads and they don't even realize it's wrong, and they already built up their self values around it: e.g. they might actually think that by succeeding an abusive relationship with a socially and sexually competent alpha male, they "conquered" a difficult man with their "female charm", and the cruelty of this guy to others (and previously to her) will just add up their confidence of their own..."beauty" or "uniqueness"(and it works especially well when the male is rigid to other women but desired the heroin strongly alone).

Yep. That's my psychoanalysis of this weird trend in novels∠( ᐛ 」∠)＿It's not really CCP's fault--however you take it, chairman Mao showed support of female rights and female presence in the army--and I feel like by publishing those strict bans of sexual contents on novels the government partly intends to stop this trend. But I'm already wordy enough on one subject so let's stop before it turns to a heated discussion about feminism. Besides, it's getting better through time--which is maybe the only way to cure this kind of cultural diseases--and many of younger generations are fighting for it, too. Not everyone is like that. Me, for example :D

ace_cap Ahh the two examples are probably too extreme and not in the same area. However, if you are talking about similar novel tropes, they are still indeed very common in those two countries, though there are just too many so I can't exactly pick out a typical example in an instant. I just used these two cases to state my point of "it's a social, cultural phenomenon" XDDD if you can get my point.

As for your worries I'm not quite sure. It really depends on the strategy of the parent company of WN in China: do they want a long-term development in the international market, or to them WN is just a quick cash cow to smooth the painful setbacks they've recently suffered in the domestic market :D I was pretty surprised myself when I first knew this but you international readers pay like 10 times more than Chinese web novel readers just for finishing an average novel, while the salary for writers on WN is far from proportionally higher than that of domestic writers, so they are really squeezing money out of you guys (and writers, too) heartlessly. Theoritically, they shouldn't be so careless about a market so lucrative, but who knows∠( ᐛ 」∠)＿Chinese businessmen aren't generally so well educated compared to those in EU and NA countries (I'm studying in an European business school right now so I can strongly feel this difference), so they might just do stupid shxt, too, especially for Yuewen group (the parent company) who literally has zip international experience and WN is literally their first attempt.

ace_cap TBH it is no news how web novel writers are abused back in China. Those who became rich and famous are just idols to draw young people in (I was one of them, too), but the cold fact is some young writers even died on the path these websites tempted them into, either of suicide caused by mental conditions or sudden death caused by poor health. Many of them are forced both by Chinese readers who want fast, constant updates and editors who want to make the most out of them to keep writing, even when they are literally running out of inspirations or they have no time to sleep or eat, so it's just too much to bear for some of them that it costs their health and even life, and nobody seems to pay a huge attention to it so far. As you can imagine, these companies don't really listen to the complaints, so nobody ever speaks about the unreasonables anymore (because it's useless), and gradually many readers and editors in China somewhat just take it for granted and call you "infants" as if making complaints about this only means that you are a coward who don't work hard :D Even some writers who used to be through this and are now more successful will join the army of bullies.

It's probably OOT but I just somewhat remembered the unfortunate suffering of one of the writer friends I know. She was sentenced to be imprisoned for years (I don't remember exactly how long) solely because she wrote a gay love story with some sexual contents and printed it into several copies--it was not even a commercial, public release she was just sharing it with some fans--and even the printer shop who helped her got punished, too, under the crime of "distributing illegal contents", while at the same time true sexual offenders(especially male ones) are often just somehow forgiven by the public and detained only for months. The irony.∠( ᐛ 」∠)＿

Fiona_Singer ace_cap You have taken the 'infants' out of context.

When I said 'infants', I was referring to how international readers of web novels are considered 'infants' in terms of exposure compared to the tropes in the Chinese web novel industry since the Chinese web novel industry has been around for nearly 20 years, while internationally, it has been around for less than 5 years. The troupes and writing style developed by the Chinese web novel scene is quite different from the traditional writing seen internationally. Hence, in terms of exposure to the various troupes available, international readers are 'infants.' Not mentally, physically, or any capacity.

Fiona_Singer With regards to your friend, isn't it more of a problem with the laws and government, and not necessarily the web novel industry?

And seriously, you are making it as if authors who wish to succeed are being forcefully chained to the desk to write. How many thousands of books have been eunuched in China? How many authors have switched identities to get a brand new try at writing? It's all free choice here. Even the god-level authors mention that they suffer from health problems from writing and ask for readers to pardon them. It's known by all that this isn't an easy job, but people still work hard at it. Some succeed, some don't. Is that even surprising?

It's the same as the entertainment industry. How many starlets try to make it big, and how much hard work do they need to put in to succeed? I'm sure you are well aware how much 'cleaner' the web novel industry is compared to the entertainment industry when it comes to undertable deals, etc.

It's not really abuse, but people working hard to succeed by their own free will. For example, as you said, you think it won't work out and quit. No one came to threaten you with force or the law to continue writing, right? If you would like to describe it, this is a tough industry to succeed, just as how many industries are.

With regards to price, it's pretty much supply and demand, along with the fact that China still isn't a very rich country (GDP per capita wise). Furthermore, the number of Chinese readers (in the hundreds of millions) already match close to the populations of most major countries, so it's quite hard to use economy of scale for the international market.

CKtalon As for the "infant" word...well, my post was talking about people I've met in China so it's not about you∠( ᐛ 」∠)＿Still, again in a pure business sense, that is a bad choice for words. Though I know you are not a professional customer service staff, since you decided at that time to stand up and speak for your company, you should be aware that you are a representative, and even though you simply used it just as a metaphor and there was no intended insult, it's still very easy (and very natural, really) to be interpreted wrongly and to an extent, indicating that in your mind--which in this scenario now represents the company's mind--that customers need to be educated by you guys to know what they should read and do, which would cause misunderstanding.

Unless of course it's exactly you guys' plan∠( ᐛ 」∠)＿I got a feeling that's what you guys have in mind, isn't it? From what I see, what you guys are doing here is you think because online literature industry is still brand new in international markets, so what you should do is customer education--introduce it to the users and "teach" them/let them learn on their own to use it in the Chinese way, or at least let's say the way you guys expect them to. It's quite a normal approach--customer education--if your business is INDEED A NEW ONE. Well, now that complainers like me start to appear, maybe you guys should think twice∠( ᐛ 」∠)＿

In fact from what I stand, I think you guys should quit your mindset of "I'm creating a new industry in the market", because you are actually joining an existing area and competing, which is popular literature. Yeah I know they are mostly in the paper media, not in the internet media (which give you some advantage at this beginning stage, because people love new tech-savvy things :D) but THEY SERVE THE EXACT SAME FUNCTION AS THAT OF YOUR PRODUCTS, and mind you, they've been growing into a pretty mature shape (actually much more mature than your business model, might I say) and serving their function pretty well and customers are already very accustomed to that model and that preference of the products for a very long time, so you guys should at least consider you are competing with substitutions, and--like I said before--think again about the whole "customer education" thing∠( ᐛ 」∠)＿Besides, who says there wouldn't be new entrants? I know Yuewen is probably the largest giant in this business, but there are other Chinese Internet big-heads who have already dabbled in your industry for quite some time, who can guarantee they wouldn't come in and take a slice. Gosh, I've been out of this for a long time I haven't paid attention to any development here, but for all I know, Tencent and NetEase can be possible players (If they haven't already). What can I say∠( ᐛ 」∠)＿Welcome to the world.

Ahh I'm rumbling again. Probably because I have done too many business cases recently and it's becoming a habit of analyzing everything, couldn't help it especially when it comes to the area where I'm familiar with. You are probably wondering "what's this crazy bitch talking about"∠( ᐛ 」∠)＿so I'm just gonna say sorry and quite analyzing. Ah, I'm just bored.∠( ᐛ 」∠)＿

ace_cap I actually chatted with one of my business consultant friend and he was so shocked about the whole thing :D Like red flags are keeping popping up and what they do is to tell customers "you are still infants (no matter what that infant word means)" and argue with them about who's right or wrong :D It's just total madness to professional business eyes. Even if they have Singapore office, I doubt their management crew will be open and international and thus it will be an improvement :D

ace_cap I'm not even speaking on behalf of Webnovel and you should read what I originally posted. It wasn't condescending at all.

Actually international readers are considered infants compared to what Chinese readers are used to. They have had 18 years to flesh out all sorts of troupes, so they have seen way more than what international readers have read.

Is 18 years not really an age comparison?

https://forum.webnovel.com/d/24782-a-polite-question-to-the-individuals-behind-the-what-s-next-section/7

ace_cap Ah just drop it with him. I think he will never get to understand what we r meaning :(

TheCaffinated There are some but unfortuantely based on my knowledge most of them are pretty scattered and many of them have to sorta "mingle" their products with Online Literature Works from platforms like WebNovel to survive. Simply from a business model point of view, theirs are quite similar to Kindle/Kodo.

But I still feel like in China paper books and web novels are so seperated, not just they are in "different medium", but the contents, writing styles, major schools and audiences, too (for details you can check my 101 in the link at top of this thread), unlike in western countries I think for you guys paper or internet or not, they are books all the same, simply in different forms. So in my opinion, the problem platforms in "Kindle model" face in China is that they keep wavering between the readers of web novels and paper books and couldn't decide, thus looking very awkward, and many of them already slide to the Online Literature Platforms like WebNovel.

Another problem maybe the poor IP protection in online literature platforms. It is a problem of poor education about copyrights in the general society, of course, but I've shockingly heard from several writers from Qidian recently that instead of helping writers to report pirated novels, the platform actually sells the novels to pirate websites thus taking a share of profit from it, and some of the management crew even hold stocks in these bloodsuckers. So these kind of problems also spook the writers of those "full self-published novels" and they would rather print their novels into books.

P.S. Ever since I came abroad lots of writers I know in China have exposed lots of dirty stuff like this to me, hoping I could tell you guys overhere where the "freedom of speech" is protected, but I'm hesitating. First I think many of these stuff are simply impossible to happen under international regulations, so putting them here on WebNovel platform maybe a little unfair to WN because it may dampen your impressions of it further unnecessarily, secondly (mostly really) because this platform is so China-minded that I'm afraid if I "overstep my boundaries" they will still find a way to do something to me :D I don't wanna get assassinated.

As for state censors they are a general limitation on all literature works, I don't really think it specially affects this type of platforms you are asking.