checkm8

CKtalon

Thormented

KingBiBiK the problem is not just cost of SS, but mainly due to the way they implemented it.
Their way of monetizing is extremely taunting to average readers and thus make us dissatisfied.

Many games have the same type of monetization, just that they are clear that they are aiming for whales (in simpler terms big rich people who love to spend).
What the SS do is give a false hope. A hope that you can eventually spend little money and catch up the rest with daily login. Something that traps and makes us angry as we get to know this will not work and we cannot pay more.

So firstly we have to realize the premium chapter are not basically meant to us unless we are willing to spend a good amount of money on that novel every month. The premium is basically same as patreon system but without any dividers or separations (A huge benefit as well a problem in disguise).
Secondly, if you realize that you are not able to spend the staggering amount on a monthly basis, draw the line with the free chapter that gets unlocked every day as the upper limit and only unlocks the next if is an important moment. Then wait a day. (This never works with a good novel since we get tempted to unlock the next one).

Man, I love quoting myself lol.
Ok back to my opinion on Premium.

Premium and Patreon system is fundamentally same as well as different.
From what I see Patreon is like support the translator kinda system in which willing readers donate money for motivating translators to work faster (i.e more releases - something I would love to do if I am a writer) and get some rewards based on the level of support they provide (in terms of advance reading option based on how much you pay).
1) It has clear distinction about who gets what. You pay this, you get this. The tiers are expensive for average readers. Still, they can contribute by giving $3 a month as a way of saying thanks.
2) It has a more emotional background. It is a form of support more than reward.
3) The free chapters are always released at a normal pace. You are only ahead of X amount of chapters and you stay that X amount throughout.
4) Can always back down and still continue as a free reader easier. In most scenarios, easy to catch up.

Premium makes this distinction simpler and nonexistent that in a way complicates things.
1) Anyone can get access to any advance chapters as long you use SS to unlock.
2) So you can skip ahead if you want.
3) For any patreons who believes, I pay and I need to get more. This system works better since they can stay miles ahead of free chapters by paying.
4) A use of currency. This generalizes things and gives you more freedom to choose.
5)7 chap free is not a bad rate. And faster premium chapter release rate. A very high rate...

Now the problems.
1.Patreon is costly. But it is more like a donation so it's justifiable.
2.It only applies to a particular novel or 2 of the translator.
3. The author who the work actually belongs to may not get the proper benefit.
4. The benefit is not much of a benefit. Since you only get access to advance chapters, unlike the premium where you get more and more.

  1. Premium lures you like an addictive drug and Makes you spent since its a new currency and open to everyone.
  2. Get a free reader and lower tier payer trapped in the system. (THE BIGGEST PROBLEM) if you are like the low tier who like to a pay like $1-5 a novel in a month and wants to read daily. This frustrates you since as the premium chapters accumulate you felt stuck. Cannot read multiple premium titles on a daily basis and keep them uptodate. (But if you count the bonus SS, I find premium is litle cheaper)
  3. The feeling of 'left behind'. Patreon made the distinction clear and does not give free and less paying patreons the feeling that the story is ahead of them like premium.

Every system has its own faults.
I personally don't find premium as a bad program. The downside I have is, I don't feel like buying SS to get trapped in as I know myself and I cannot keep up with the accumulating premium chaps and buy the SS required.
I don't want to wait and catch up instead I would prefer the Pff free chapter to be released from where I left off. But I know it's not gonna happen.
So I got no problem freely using 7 free chapters.

(ed: By the time I finished typing there are many other comments here lol)

            KingBiBiK 3. The author who the work actually belongs to may not get the proper benefit.

            Just a heads up, Translators do not profit from premium unless they decide to forgo the flat rate they are currently paid.

                Of course, the whole discussion of whether or not authors received a portion of the revenue from patreon could have been addressed by moving it in-house ala wuxiaworld. But of course, QI decided to ignore that revenue route.

                  checkm8
                  By the way how do you know? Did someone talk abt it?

                  It was in the leaked contract in the forums that the company has all right to do stuff that can potentially lower any sort of income. So the team planned this from long ago. The percent share from SS above flat rate is highly unrealistic.
                  Only 2-3 works like LoHP and RtW has a chance to benefit if they every opt out of flat rate for percent sharing.

                  So I think it is highly helpful for other translators to get the flat rate. In a way, I kinda agree that the translators should be treated like an employee of the author than giving complete freedom and ownership to the work. The translated work is only 25% or less theirs (But the work they pick affects them). This way they get paid based on their work quality and does not get wrecked when they novel they picked is trash.

                  A translator is like a gambler who wins big if they got the right one (given the condition that they knew how to translate properly and knows English)

                  This way at least we are getting faster release rate including the premium ones (and yea in some cases, low quality).

                      KingBiBiK The TL revenue was something clearly stated by translators on Discord.

                      As far as translators are concerned. Translations are considered an original work under copyright law and are 100% the owner of the translator. So basically, an author/publisher could cease & desist a translator from publishing their translations but they would not own that translation.

                      Unless of course there was a contract between the author/publisher and the translator.

                      Of course, we are now seeing that a contract agreement between QI and anyone is basically worth about the cost of toilet paper. It's pretty apparent that QI could give a shit about contracts or even licensing agreements.

                      This is nothing new btw:
                      In 2017 Qidian's parent company was sued for breach of contract with a partner Migu Reading.

                      http://v.techweb.com.cn/finance/2017-08-08/2570128.shtml

                      A rough translation here:
                      https://forum.novelupdates.com/threads/yuewen-qidian-is-being-sued-for-reneging-their-contract-with-a-chinese-company.44643/

                      So basically Qidian isn't exactly known for keeping their contracts. It wouldn't be a surprise if they start short changing TL's later down the road, if they decided to go more towards a percentage instead of flat rate.


                          checkm8

                          Lonelytree

                          Forgot to say this.

                          Yes. Despite how big Qidian is or how much of a contribution or effect it has on the entire webnovel community, here in the English field WW is sacred.
                          It is like ancestral home to many of us who started way back and had our first experience there. So no need to mention how people react when someone sullies or do something against ancestors..right. Despite how right they are, it is not viewed nicely.

                          So best case scenario, I prefer not to see any issues like this between them. I don't mind them competing properly. I read everywhere that Chinese values Face and I do not know why these actions that demean face without any benefits is necessary.

                          IT IS JUST SOME NOVELS. We got many more to come and go. So why can't the officials give it a rest and ignore it.

                                checkm8 You might also want to see what Migu did that resulted in what China Literature did.

                                http://www.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/SEHK/2017/1108/LTN20171108066.pdf

                                It is the same thing with WW. Once the contract is broken, there is no reason why Qidian has to play nice. WW did the same thing with Patreon. They were supposed to provide chapters for free but they used Patreon/paywalls to earn money from chapters.

                                Similarly, they aren't allowed to do any in-house advanced chapters functionality. Any 'sharing' of money earned from that in-house Patreon is against the authorization contract and Qidian will not accept it.

                                RWX has now claimed that it's the translators who put the chapters behind Patreon payments and not WW's fault. Strange how the CEO of WW is doing the same thing.

                                RWX also claims that Qidian allowed it during investment agreement talks which would have been fine IF it was actually signed.

                                A proper authorization would be something like this:

                                    checkm8 I hate contracts, but what can you do?

                                    You are right. The translation is considered a derivative work and the translator has ownership of it. But....translating without permission of the author is worse than plagiarising. So before translating, the translator has to make a deal with the publisher or author and negotiate benefits. In most scenarios, they are asked to give away their copyright of the finished product to the author for the right to translate and royalties or a fixed fee.

                                    If I remember right in a traditional printed book, the translator can get less than 5% of the royalties compared to the author who gets abt 25%. Just that they have to ask clearly for global sales lol.

                                    In this case, they have a fixed rate. And how much the contract holds them, I don't know.

                                    If one day, they can get kicked out of the novel when Qidian feel like it? Maybe. Basically, I do not think there is job guarantee but a cooperation on a contract that can be scary to a normal person and bendable to a clever lawyer firm.

                                        CKtalon

                                        summarized in 1 sentence:

                                        a man made a lot of empty promise to a girl, hoping to get some; the girl refused, but still naively thinking the man will keep the promise

                                        the moment WW denied QI to buy part of its share, WW should know all those promises don't mean anything anymore

                                            checkm8

                                            Qidian CN works off a completely different model from QI if you've ever visited it before. There's no such thing as reading without paying(... or at least very little of it, you're shown a set number of characters as free chapters, usually amounting to around 10% of the novel?), i believe there's a monthly rotation of free novels, but no control over that, not are you able to maintain access (at least through the website) after they leave rotation.

                                            Unless I see evidence of QI moving towards that model shown by Qidian CN, I chose to believe in current model until Qidian changes it. I have no reason to speculate otherwise except for existing models, which may or may not even be legal (hey look, I can throw baseless accusations around too!).

                                            Mowuji_immortal

                                            So now let's talk about the value of the advance chapters on patreon itself.

                                            This means that intrinsically patrons are using their money in order to read ahead and that proves true so long as the chapter isn't released to the public.

                                            This means that the value of chapters on Patron can be set as Patronage % of days the chapter remains premium. (it works better after being expressed. X Y/Z where X = patronage, Y= premium days, Z = total number of days in premium.)

                                            In practice that means on the day you pay your patronage, you're paying $5 for the month and the value of that patronage drops on a daily basis.After the first week, assuming you attach equal preference to each chapter, you're losing approximately 25% of the value of your patronage because hey, that chapter is now free. *

                                            On the other hand, if you're going through Qidian's premium program, that value of the one chapter that you unlocked can be held for as long as 14 weeks in extreme examples.* Going by a very dumb comparison You're losing around 7% of the value in the same time frame.

                                            *you COULD do a whole bunch of math with the expression I gave above and figure this out in a manner that makes better sense, but honestly it's not worth it. The logic doesn't change which is simply that the value of patron money also depends on the time that they are "kept premium". Which is the only tangible benefit that can be given to patrons. The longer your "bought" chapter is kept premium, the less value you lose as time goes on.

                                            Alternatively, on a per chapter basis, Even the most generous patreon I can think of charges >$1 per chapter, which is tantamount to 50 SS that you can use on multiple chapters. Again, this is helpful towards patrons.

                                            All this is just a fancy ay of saying that the value of patronage to Qidian is both cheaper by a per chapter basis as well as depreciates slower.

                                            The only drawback is free chapters, of which you're still given 7/week which is for a premium product that you should be spending money on perfectly fine from my point of view.

                                            Edit: also, tldr i'm bad at using spreadsheets today apparently, decided to just cheat and throw in the cost from the messages here ~_~; Sorry.

                                                  KingBiBiK I agree. I've recently become a member of WW's VIP program and am quite happy with it. It's a far cry from before with the ads. I'm actually happy reading multiple chapters and don't have to kill my browser periodically to kill a memory hogging web page. Ad-Free is a blessing and the site performance is great.

                                                  This thread has become a focus about premium cost vs patreon, but that wasn't the original intent or what drove me away from webnovel.com. It's the pure maliciousness that seems to be coming from the QI management.


                                                  There are a lot of issues that could be argued both ways in the contract dispute between WW & QI. That's clearly been apparent from the get-go. Fine.

                                                  The poaching of HJC isn't one of those. It shouldn't be. For me, it's one the proverbial 'straws that broke the camel's back', it's what finally convinced me that there was nothing good about QI's Management staff. There isn't a need for such pettiness.

                                                  It's the clearest indicator of how underhanded QI is going to choose to operate and without a change in management, I don't see that improving.

                                                  I didn't immediately stop visiting webnovel.com after the HJC poaching, but it definitely caused me to reduce the amount of reading I was doing on the website. A few weeks later, QI started dual-hosting again starting with A will Eternal. I reduced my time on QI even more—to the point that I was running a surplus in SS again, something I hadn't been able to do since the early days of QI.

                                                  Then the new issues with the DMCA of patreon.

                                                  It has made me ask myself "Why am I spending money on this website?" "Why should I continue to support a company like this?"

                                                  I live in the US and have to put up with this shit by the current president. I don't have to put up with it from QI. I'm just not willing to continue supporting the toxicity any longer.

                                                  There is a right way to operate a business and then there is QI's way. As stated earlier their actions are toxic to the community.

                                                      Thormented There's no such thing as reading without paying

                                                      You actually haven't paid much attention to Qidian's website.

                                                      There are currently ~845,000 works that are free to read and ~29,500 VIP works that require payment. VIP works usually have some set of chapters free, typically 100 or so. It's not really possible to do a percentage since the novels are usually serials.

                                                          Thormented Ofcourse anyone can see that the premium is cheaper than the patreon. But the thing we aren't talking about just 1 novel. premium is decreasing the free chaps for all the novels so if you read more than 1 novels it won't be the same which everyone here reads. You can just support 1 novel on patreon and read the rest free with realese rate of 11-21chaps/week. But now you are required to spend ss on all the novels you read not just one. And when you add all those values you have to spend a lot of ss. Here if you are saying that just read free chaps for other novels that also doesn't change the fact that I could have chosen not to support on patreon and read more chaps for free.

                                                          The thing is I am not against Premium if they can make premium such that you get 1chap unlocked everday no matter how many chaps you have already unlocked

                                                              Mowuji_immortal

                                                              shrugs the topic's logic implies that Qidian will raise the cost of Patreon. I'm talking strictly about that.

                                                              If you want to overpay for Patreon and then complain that Qidian is expensive go ahead, but do NOT try to convince others without understanding the math or providing a logical argument.

                                                                  CKtalon It took me a while to process everything. I am curious now. Tell me.
                                                                  Did WW buy right to translate those 20 novels for free by actually paying money?
                                                                  If they did they are really big idiots to exclusevely give away their any other rights to make money out it other than ad money.

                                                                  And I refuse to believe Qidian did not know this. I absolutely refuse to believe that. The most probable reason I can think of is the inhousing patreon system WW just implemented. Comeon, this argument of violation of contract can be right if you follow every rules down to the lines. But seriously, start humanizing.

                                                                  {{{{Despite how justifiable it is, it sounds like a move to crush WW when it starts to compete seriously.}}}}

                                                                  If it is as Qidian claims, they can Ask and ORDER WuxiaWorld to NOT apply in-house patreon system in WW site. That sounds justifiable. WW can do it with other publisher novels.

                                                                  And if RXW claims the patreon page upload doesn't have anything to do with WW, then I am afraid he is digging himself a pit. Individuals do not have a contract with Qidian nor they are authorized to publish these novels. So Qidian can claim DMCA like "You cheated" "You cheated." But seriously give them a lease.

                                                                  CKtalon A proper authorization would be something like this:

                                                                  A revocable authorization (without proper conditions) is a proper authorization? Laughable.

                                                                  PATREON SHOULD SUE WW FOR STEALING THEIR BUSINESS PLAN LOL.

                                                                        Thormented

                                                                        ~38,940 Free novels are listed as Finished. So roughly 5%
                                                                        ~13,440 VIP novels are listed as Finished. So roughly 45%

                                                                        ~63200 Free novels were updated within the last month.
                                                                        ~7000 VIP novels were updated in the last month.

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