Webnovel.Forum

Tomoyuki
For me filler chapters are one of those chapters that does not advance the plot. The type where even if you don’t read it you won’t miss anything. I would name some but I don’t want to start any fights with the author or loyal fans of the book. But the comments section of that particular chapters says the same thing so it’s not just me who believes that. I ended up dropping that novel but of course once again not all authors are like that.

It is a fact though that after privilege was implemented that we got less mass releases. I get translators have a life and everything, same with the authors but it’s unfair to those that can’t afford to pay. I’m not asking a mass release every single month, but would once every three months be too much? Even 5-10 chapters would be nice. That’s why I would still prefer a different system.

Fourclovers Why do you think you are even entitled to a mass release at all? Yeah, it is a bit too much. Let's say I write 1 chapter a day, and try to maintain a daily release because of my job. Sometimes I miss writing because of work (extra shifts, overtime, real life, etc.) so maybe I write 1 chapter every 2-3 days instead. When and where am I going to find the time to write an extra 4-9 chapters for your mass release?

Also, how do you know which chapters do not "advance" the plot? Slice of life moments don't advance the plot, but they are needed because you can't have an adrenaline-rush action-packed chapter every single time. The main characters need a break, need a breather. Some people claim that romance is filler, but how are you supposed to deal with relationships then? Skip them? I've seen people complain about the train arc in Forty Millenniums of Cultivation being "filler" just because they want Li Yao to go straight to university, but that was so integral to his character development and provides massive context for how the universe in which he inhabits works. Yeah, you are not the only one who comment on chapters being filler, but a lot of times I find the comments unfair and unjust because they sound like they are calling anything they don't want to read as "filler" without considering the actual needs of the story, or the pacing or character development that takes place during this so-called "filler" chapter. There are readers who complain about an entire flashback arc being "filler" even though it's part of world building and sets the context for the current events and explains certain things that happened in the present, but no, readers complain that it's "filler" all because they couldn't care less what happened in the past and want to know what the main character is doing right now. That's just BS.

Why is it unfair to those who can't afford to pay? You still get to read the chapters. You are maybe 10 chapters behind, but it's not like you will never read them. The only difference is that you get to read everything 10 days after the privilege readers if the author does a daily release. Don't you realize you're basically being unfair to those who pay extra? What's the difference between them who pay extra and you who don't, if you get the same amount of chapters or the same thing? They might as well don't pay extra then.

So what system would you like? Everyone gets equal number of chapters regardless of how much they pay? Or authors should just give up on earning extra and just do mass releases regardless of how busy they are in real life for no extra cost?

KoraL That's plagiarism and recaps, and they are rightly frowned upon. That's not even filler anymore, that's just...ethically wrong. If you copy and paste a Wikipedia article, that's downright plagiarism. Recaps are recaps, not fillers, and I agree that they are absolutely unnecessary, and if writers are abusing that to pad the word count, then they should be rightly called out. As for the different character's point of view, perhaps the author is just not skilled enough to provide new insights, and was trying his or her best to do something different. Got to give him/her credit for trying instead of complaining that it's filler.

I am not a big fan of the privilege system, but I'm just explaining to clarify how it actually works because some of the complaints clearly indicate that they had no idea what they were paying for and thought they were entitled to things that they weren't, so I just want to sort that out. If there's a better alternative, I'm all for it. The subscription model didn't work because it literally caused a drastic drop in author's income, so I can understand why the writers wanted to scrap it, so that's not viable. I'm not sure what is a practical solution or a better alternative. Maybe we'll figure it out. Eventually.

You saying that we aren’t entitled to mass releases are wrong. We are still readers that rate, support, comment & share your novels to others. That’s how a story gets popular - with support. Without the readers support, writers wouldn’t even have a chance to have their story get paid. In that case back before privilege was implemented they shouldn’t ever have mass releases because we aren’t entitled back then too. Whether we pay or not we are still readers that support our authors. And I don’t think those that can’t pay should be neglected like that. I don’t think it’s too much to ask for a mass release once in a while and I’m sorry you felt that way.

Filler chapters are filler chapters. You can disagree that’s fine. I never said you wrote filler chapters, I said some do, some dont. But it’s also a fact filler chapters exist. Maybe not for you story but there is. Even on book translations there are still filler chapters. Some writers could write a filler chapter cause they have writers block but need to meet a quota. Even real life authors have editors that emit paragraphs after paragraphs cause they think it’s not needed for the story. To think no writers would ever write filler chapters are thinking too naively.

Tomoyuki
I would like a system where it’s affordable. And not like privilege where you have to pay twice. They might as well merge the pricing and give us a flat rate. If it costs the same as patreon that’s good if it costs more that’s also fine. Cause the most complaints I see about privilege is the fact that people pay twice. Also when we buy a month of it we should be able to read for month and not count by the calendars. If we buy it on the 28th we should be able to read until the 28th of next month. This is also what is different from patreon. Also like what you said, I don’t know what better system could be made. I just feel privilege is not it. They should at least make adjustments to it.

Fourclovers You must be joking. No, you are not entitled to mass releases. Yeah, a story becomes popular with the readers' support, and perhaps you gain support through mass releases, but that's a privilege, not an entitlement. Don't ever mistake a gift for entitlement.

If you don't want to support a writer just because he doesn't do mass releases, then so be it. And yes, it is too much to ask for a mass release even once in a while. This is not a full-time job. We do not have the time to provide mass releases sometimes. It's already a tremendous effort to keep up a daily release, and as you probably have noticed, most stories tend to go on hiatus, or writers just give up halfway. Never mind mass release, it takes dedication and diligence just to maintain a daily release, or for someone to actually finish his story all the way to the end. And it's not about neglect. It's about you getting what you paid for. You are paying for chapters that are already written. You are not paying for mass releases. You are not paying to enslave us, to chain us to our chairs and force us to pump out 10 chapters in a single day for that mass release. If we can't do it, we have very valid reasons why we can't, and you are not entitled to mass releases just because you say so. If you refuse to support just because my work-life schedule or real life events means that I struggle to provide a daily release for six months, never mind a single mass release, then I will be more than happy to not receive your support. I'm not getting paid for a mass release, nor am I getting paid to listen to you whine about not getting your mass release.

Just because you patronize my shop everyday and "support" me doesn't mean you are entitled to a free lunch or an extra meal. I can only cook so much everyday, if I can't afford to give you an extra meal because I'm busily cooking for other people as well, then that's how it is. Writers have real lives, real work, and their own personal circumstances to deal with. If you can't support them just because you don't get your mass release, then don't. In the first place, you should be supporting a story that is well written, entertaining and enjoyable, not a story that pumps out mass release. Quality over quantity. But your attitude and entitlement only encourage quantity over quality, and doesn't seem to care about the authors at all.

Think about it. What happens to you if you don't receive any mass release? NOTHING. You have plenty of stories to choose from. Even if the author misses a daily update, nothing bad will happen to you. You just move on, read another story, look for a new story. Perhaps you are reading multiple stories, you're not going to miss Story X if it fails to update today. You probably get annoyed because of a cliffhanger, but what exactly is going to happen? Nothing. You spend maybe 10 minutes reading a chapter, and move on. If there's no daily update, you spend those 10 minutes doing something else, maybe reading another story. You're not wasting your time or your life.

What about the author? For him to do a mass release, he has to invest 10-15 hours a day to write 5 chapters. Let's say it takes 2-3 hours to write a single chapter. And you want a mass release of 10 chapters. Where is he going to find 20-30 hours from? It's already difficult for authors to take out 2-3 hours everyday to maintain a daily update - many don't even do so, they maybe write 1 chapter every 2-3 days, or 1 chapter a week. Those able to maintain a daily update are those who selflessly dedicate their time, who literally spend several hours a day just to ensure you have something to read everyday. For them to do a mass release means they have to find 20-30 hours from somewhere...where are they going to find that time? This is unlike the reader, who spends 10 minutes reading, maybe gives a power stone, maybe throws a comment, maybe spends a second or two offering a gift. It's 20-30 hours that they often do not have because of real life. What happens if he is sick? He takes a day or two off, and then readers complain that there are no updates. What happens if he has real-life affairs to take care of? Maybe his parents are sick. Or he has to take care of his nephew. Maybe he has to work overtime for the next couple of weeks. Or he has an examination to study for the entire month. Or perhaps a project he has to work on over the next six months. Or he decides to go on a camping trip. But no, he can't go anywhere, he can't go on vacation, he can't hang out with old friends or whatever because he's obligated to write everyday and update everyday? To dedicate more time than usual just to stockpile for an eventual mass release?

Perhaps you want to put yourself in the author's shoes and consider his circumstances, the amount of effort and time he needs to write even a single chapter everyday, the dedication and sacrifices he has to make for you to have something to read everyday, before you selfishly and thoughtlessly demand for a mass release, and how you are entitled to it. Because no, you are not. And no, you are not sorry that I feel this way. You have absolutely no idea how much sacrifice, pain, effort and time we invest into writing, and seem to think that it's this easy task where we can f*ing pull several chapters out of our ass every 3 months or something. Chapters don't just bloody appear from nowhere, we need to actually invest a tremendous amount of time and effort into creating them. So don't act so entitled and think that you deserve a mass release because of your support, especially when your support of just reading for several minutes, clicking on votes, etc. doesn't commensurate with the hours of sweat, blood and tears we have to put into creating those chapters. This isn't about you not getting to read anything - if you don't get your chapter or mass release, you move on and read other stuff or do other things. Writers, on the other hand, need to actually sit down for hours and type to create a single chapter. It's not as simple as us just hand-waving a chapter into existencce. Yeah, you pay for it, maybe? So what? You are paying to read something that we already spent hours working so hard to write and create. Not for the promise or guarantee that we will do a mass release. You are paying for something that we have already created, not something that we will create in future, or not for a mass release in future one day. Your "support" isn't the same thing as entitlement to mass release, or even a daily release schedule. It's to ensure that we can keep going, we can support ourselves, and that our efforts and labor in writing a story actually mean something instead of us working for free. Don't mistake your support for entitlement. Just as writers need readers' support, readers also need to understand the authors' circumstances and not make ridiculous demands like mass releases, and to stop behaving so entitled. Otherwise nobody will want to write. It's like the service sector - even if you pay for a specific service, you are not entitled to yell, complain and make demands of the service provider.

I am not denying that filler chapters exist. I am merely pointing out that readers tend to call whatever they don't want to read as fillers and lump everything together, which is...unfair.

Fourclovers Again, you are mistaking extra gifts for entitlement.

If you are contracted to work 8 hours a day, and suddenly a customer demands that you work nine hours or 10 hours all because he is supporting your shop, or because he is paying you, I am very sure you will be upset.

Just because we give you something extra doesn't mean you are entitled to it. You are right, without the readers' support, writers are nothing. Conversely, without writers, you have nothing to read. And who, may I ask, can afford to write full time based on Webnovel contracts? They are not even paying minimum wage. Who are these writers and translators who are doing this full-time without needing another job? You are right, go tell all the writers not to accept contracts then. We should all write for free then. That's what most of us have been doing anyway, it changes nothing, we earn almost nothing from the contract anyway, only difference being the readers acting so entitled.

Honestly, if that's the kind of support you are offering, most of us are better off without it. If you are supporting a writer because you enjoy his story and look forward to seeing more, and don't want him to quit or give up, then that's great. If you are supporting an author because you think you are entitled mass releases and your support is conditional, based on what you think the author should do for you in return for your votes or stones, then frankly, he's better off without your support. Most of us write for fun anyway, and couldn't be bothered about the pocket change or rankings or popularity.

Tomoyuki
Actually without you writers. We could just read somewhere else. Webnovel isn’t the only story reading site or app. From what I read around January the author of “The Last wish system” quit his job to write full time. A lot of translators also don’t do this part time. I know “Paperplane” the translator is doing this full time.

You are also not understanding what I’m saying. I’m not saying authors should write for free. I’m just saying if you’re gonna complain about webnovel not paying you enough & we free readers should stop complaining. Then yeah you shouldn’t have signed that contract. They could sign a better contract with incentives. Royal road, dreame, & Wattpad are examples of online stories where authors can get paid. Now I don’t know how much they are paying them or how it works. They could also send their stories to get published or even open up their own website with ads. Miu from wattpad did that so all her readers would read on her site, so she can earn extra cash. These are examples of other options they can choose to advance their writing career instead of staying at a place where they’re not getting benefits they deserve.

Make webnovel private & only open to those that pay. And this site/app would be finished. There’s a reason why even when premium was implemented they still kept an option where readers could still read for free. This isn’t Scribd where they could rely on subscription. So you must be kidding if us free readers aren’t worth the support. And that our kind of support isn’t needed. Once again without our votes, comments & sharing. Their writing career would’ve never kicked off & are still the reason for their rising popularity despite it all. Webnovel or any kind of writing platform would cease to exist. So sorry if throwing us free readers a bone with 5 mass release chapters once in a blue moon is too much. Sorry that they feel like we’re bratty for thinking that way.

Also I literally wrote how I’m still supporting the authors & translators despite the privilege. So I have no idea why you decided to think I stayed cause I believe I should get mass releases? I can literally read it for free on another site. So obviously I stayed to support them. I’ve also given up on mass releases. I don’t expect them anymore. I don’t even check TGIF anymore. I just go on here to read & voice my opinions on things I find not right.

Fourclovers
But... you're not a free reader. You admitted you've been paying for chapters. You're lying, even to yourself. Tomo is saying just because you spend money does not mean you can get what you want when you want it. In the end, you will still be reading chapters before everyone else. Green may mean go, but only when the train has finished racing along the tracks. Not before.

Those other sites you mention rely on patreon support, something author's aren't incentivized to do here on webnovel. You have the nerve to type "We are entitled."

You realize it takes a fraction of time to read a chapter, versus writing one? You feel like your money is being drained? Then stop paying and wait just like everyone else. Take your own advice.
We would be writing whether someone was reading or not? Do you understand that writing is a hobby for most writers. It's really cool being given the opportunity to make money off of your hobby but... not when we have screeching idiots making impossible demands.
It takes me 3 hours of writing, then re-writing, then editing, then revising to write my chapters. These are 1200 words or higher. And you want... five of those a day? Are you mental? Or do you just believe that I should give up my sleep, to write because you throw money my way?

Authors do really appreciate the support you guys give, but cheesus chrisps... your posts reek of entitlement. Is this the first time your money didn't give you what you wanted right then and there? Is waiting a foreign concept to you?? Do you lack empathy?
My god, you say some dumb shit, "Without you writers we could just read somewhere else."
Are you that lacking in self awareness?

Lilliny
I did not spend money at all on webnovel. I only spent free spirit stones I earned from reading, check in etc. You can have someone on the tech side check my account & check my history. I didn’t spend a dime. I’m not lying. I didn’t pay. If I said pay I meant as in free spirit stones. So I admit it’s wrong of me If I used that term. I never said I felt like my money is being drained cause I never spent any. So like the rest aka more than half of the readers of this site I’m waiting on a day to day basis for new chapters. You can read the above posts I’ve never said I used real money. So everything you said about me there is invalid.

I am aware that writing is definitely harder than reading. But I also never said writing isn’t hard. Or that it’s a walk in a park. Writers in this platforms are the ones that complain about bout being underpaid so I’m just offering alternative roads they could’ve taken. Yeah. I do feel entitled I feel that all free readers are entitled. I’m not ashamed that it’s the truth. Just like celebrities who act & sing, without fans they would’ve never made it. Like how for dramas they release behind the scenes or outtakes or singers who release an extra track for fans. It’s the same for writers & silly for us to think they’ll throw us a bonus chapter. Without these readers they wouldn’t have made it this far. I still follow a lot of authors & translators on this site. Cause despite privilege, the novels they written are good enough for me to wait. I didn’t even trash any authors or translators. Only pointed out some that write fillers or never gave mass realizes since privilege has been implemented. I didn’t even name names. Not all books are privileged & if they are I’ll wait. I do admit some books that went privilege does release some bonus chapters but that’s a very very small margin. Also it’s true without you writers we could read somewhere else. Lots of pirate sites & endless of authors who love writing. Though we may miss out a great author this way.

Fourclovers I'm also voicing on things that I don't think is right. Such as your attitude of thinking that you are entitled to things that you actually not. Just like Lilliny said, I am pointing out that just because you want something, just because you demand for something that you have received before, does not mean that you are entitled to it. I am not complaining that Webnovel is not paying enough, and I'm not complaining about "free readers". I am criticizing your self-entitled attitude of expecting writers to hand out mass releases and you believing that you "deserve" it. And worse, now you're admitting that you don't even pay writers money. You're admitting that you're just spending free spirit stones. So basically you are confessing to being greedy and demanding for mass releases without giving anything to writers in return. Support? You have the gall to act all high and mighty and claim that you support writers, that you deserve or are entitled to mass releases or daily updates when you don't even pay a single cent?

Don't get me wrong, I couldn't care less about payment or money. If my readers give me gifts, vote for me, give me free and unpaid spirit stones - and I actually encourage that because I know they can't afford to pay sometimes, especially the younger readers - I will be eternally grateful to them. If they read my story, that's more than enough for me. I don't care about ranking or money or whatever. That's true support. If they have criticisms or feedback, I'll listen to them. Sometimes I explain to them why I won't change certain parts, or justify why I choose to write this way.

However, that doesn't mean they can turn on me and start making demands like "mass releases!" or tell me how to write my story or what to write. That's the difference between entitlement and support. I write for fun, I have a real job, I have to study for graduate school, if I can't write multiple chapters and do a mass release, then I can't. You'll have to deal with it, not pester me. When I signed the contract, the contract never stipulated that I must endure harassment or fufil the demands of my readers. Just because I sign a contract, that doesn't mean I am beholden to the wishes and demands of my readers. I will write what I want to write, because that's why I write in the first place.

I come fom Royal Road, so I'm used to writing for free. I don't even have a Patreon account, and I had never asked for donations. I signed the contract in hopes of getting a webcomic or anime adaptation one day, not because I want money. So your logic makes no sense - Royal Road and Wattpad are NOT examples of online stories where authors get paid. Royal Road doesn't pay writers in the first place, I have no idea where you got that from. By the way, I left Royal Road because of harassment, because people were rating my story 0.5 stars daily, I received threats and insults online on Discord from Royal Road readers, and they basically kicked me out because they hated my story. Since they hated me so much, I might as well leave. At least here I don't have to deal with daily 0.5 ratings. Whatever the case, I - and I believe most writers as well - don't care if our stories or "writing careers" never kicked off or if we don't get popular. It makes no difference at all. We have been writing on various websites since before you were in diapers, kid, and if our "writing careers" didn't kick off, we would have continued writing as a hobby without making any money. And since you admit that you don't pay us any money, I don't see why you're acting so entitled. We get no benefits from your so-called support - if anything, your support seems detrimental. So what if your "support" kicks off our writing career? We don't get any benefit from having our writing careers kicked off like this. You don't even pay us - so how exactly do we benefit? We get no money from your support. All we get is...acknowledgement, which is what we would get with or without the contract, even if we post on other sites. All we get is the information that there are people reading our stuff, and we are happy. But it doesn't provide any tangible form of benefit. So why exactly should we be beholden or "grateful" to you? Whether you read or don't read, "support" or don't "support" us, our situation remains the same. We get no money, we get absolutely nothing other than self-satisfaction. We didn't write just so we can get pestered by self-entitled readers demanding for mass releases. We started writing as a hobby, and we couldn't care less about votes, comments or shares. If anything, this stupid ranking or voting or sharing thing creates a toxic atmosphere where writers backstab each other (it happened in Royal Road very often where people manipulate votes and deliberately downvote and rate 0.5 on other stories to lower their ranking so that their own stories get artificially boosted in ranking). Hell, this stupid ranking system was what happened to me when people decided to harass me for writing a similar story (the fans of I Shall Rule the Heavens thinking it would be a good idea to jump onto my story I Shall Steal the Heavens and flooding it with negative reviews and comments so that their favorite story can jump above mine in the rankings). Most of us just want to write, not to participate in some inane popularity contest, win votes and earn money.

By the way, most writers on Royal Road don't do daily releases or mass releases. You'll be lucky if they update their stories once every 2-3 days, or maybe once a week.

Also...this will make for a great read for someone like you: http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html

To put it succintly, like Neil Gaiman, Webnovel writers, premium or not, are not your bitches. We are not machines. And as I pointed out, just because you pay us (and you admitted that you do not), that doesn't mean you are entitled to us serving you with mass releases every 3 months or so. Just because you support us, that doesn't mean you are entitled to some special service on our part.

You support writers because you enjoy their stories. You want to read more. Nothing more, nothing less. But that support does not beholden writers to serve you like slaves and deliver mass releases like a robot laboring overtime in a factory. Often, writers go on hiatus, drop their stories or give up halfway without finishing their stories because there is no incentive for them to continue writing. The donations, the payments via spirit stones, the support from readers is what motivates them to continue and finish the story. If they are receiving some form of monetary reward, then they will feel obligated to finish the story instead of irresponsibly dropping it halfway. However, that is completely different from demanding mass releases from them. You are paying for the chapters or the story they write, not for "mass releases." As I said above, you wouldn't care if a customer is paying you, if he demands that you serve him for 10 extra hours even though your contract only stipulates 8 working hours, you're going to be upset and rightly so. Because your human rights have been violated. So what makes you think you get to make such unreasonable demands of others?

Do not mistake extra services for entitlement. Do not mistake generosity for obligation. Do not mistake charity for duty. Sometimes we reward our readers for their patience with mass releases when we happen to have a vacation or a holiday or a break, and it just so happens we can write more than usual. But you should not be taking such gifts for granted.

I don't give a damn about the contract or underpayment or whatever. That's not why I'm pissed. I'm pissed because of your sense of entitlement and you having the gall to make demands of us without understanding the time, sacrifices and efforts we writers have to make just to ensure you have a daily update, and the audacity to think that you deserve mass releases just because you "support" us. And now, after you even admitted that you don't pay a single cent, you are just making yourself look even worse than before.

Fourclovers BUT WE DON'T CARE ABOUT SUCCESS!!!!
What is this "success" that you talk about?! You think Webnovel writers earn as much as singers or actors? What drugs are you on, man? What exactly does your support do for us?! NOT A SINGLE THING! Your support provides no tangible benefits, no monetary rewards, nothing! You admit to not paying a single cent AT ALL!

So why are you bragging about how important your support is when it does NOTHING for us?!

Also, fans don't make demands of celebrities. Just because you want your favorite singer to hold an extra concert every 2-3 months instead of every year does not mean you are entitled to it! What you want and what you are entitled to are two different things! You are paying to participate in their concerts, not paying for the right to demand more concerts! If you have paid for a ticket to their concerts, then yes, you are entitled to a seat in the concert hall. BUT THAT'S ALL YOU ARE ENTITLED TO. Nothing more. You are not entitled to demand that the singer hold an all-night concert when she is only supposed to hold a two-hour long concert! Just because you are a fan who supports her doesn't mean you are entitled to make demands of her, asking her to perform an encore until the next morning! She's human, she needs to rest! You have to distinguish between entitlement and want! And just because fans demand that this actor acts in that movie does not mean they are entitled to have that demand fulfilled. You buy a ticket to watch a movie that your favorite actor is in. You are entitled to a seat in the cinema, or you are entitled to take home the magazine or poster that you buy and pin it on your wall. But you are not entitled to demand that the actor act in this movie, or that movie. Get that through your head. Yes, singers and actors are nothing without their fans, but their fans have absolutely no business acting like self-entitled jerks and making ridiculous demands of them!

Do you stalk an idol and follow her everywhere she goes because you are her fan? "But I'm entitled to! I support her and attend her every concert! Therefore she is obligated to devote more of her personal time to entertaining me!" HELL NO!

Nobody is dismissing the support of free readers. No one is saying free readers are bad. No one is condemning free readers or complaining about free readers not donating money to them. WE ARE JUST SAYING THAT YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO MAKE DEMANDS AND ACT LIKE SELF-ENTITLED JERKS WHO THINK THEY DESERVE MORE THAN WHAT THEY PAID FOR (and you never even paid for anything)!

Do I appreciate the support of fans and readers? Hell, yeah. Do I care if they don't spend a single cent and read my stories for free? Hell, no. Do I enjoy reading their comments? Depends, if they are happy, I'm happy, if they insult me, of course I won't enjoy it. AND YOUR SELF-ENTITLED DEMANDS FALL INTO THE CATEGORY OF INSULTS BECAUSE IT SHOWS HOW MUCH YOU DISREGARD ME AS A PERSON AND HOW YOU ONLY THINK OF ME AS A BLOODY MACHINE TO CHURN OUT MASS RELEASES AT YOUR BLOODY CONVENIENCE. That's what I'm annoyed at.

I'm not dissing the support of free readers, and I actually am very happy with their support. What I take issue with is your self-entitled attitude of thinking you have every right to make demands of us WHEN YOU DO NOT.