• Suggestions Diss

  • Flagging/Blacklisting of novels due to usage of emojis/emoticons/kaomoji/symbols

I personally dislike it when emojis are a huge part of the story. It seems so immature. Like the author can't properly express the character's emotions w/o them. Imagine there's a kaomoji every time the characters are talking. Just so the author could express that this was what the characters are feeling. 😑

There's a BL VRMMORPG original here that doesn't use emojis in her story and she's doing brilliantly. So being unable to use it in stories here is not really a disadvantage. It just depends on the author's overall ability to use words to convey what the characters in their stories are feeling. 😕

    Sighgray Whether the usage of emojis is good or bad should be something for the author to decide by themselves, not for the system to decide for them.

    There are many novels with a comedic or light-hearted feel made for young adults that might benefit from being able to include emoji. Maybe that which you call "immature" might come off as "funny" or "cute" to someone else. Just because you don't read novels that use them doesn't mean that they shouldn't be used.

    Also, your point would have come off much more believable if you yourself didn't use emojis to express it. (◞‸ლ)
    Why didn't you go in to explain your skeptical and annoyed looks? Why use these bad, bad emojis?

    I agree with you that emojis shouldn't be used excessively, however, when you know the right time and place to use them they can add a lot of value.

    Since you cannot come up with any examples of good usage, let me help you out:

    • when you are in the middle of an action-packed scene and dropping a proper explanation of the character's facial expression would slow down or interrupt the mood you've created. Of course, you CAN just not explain the facial expression, like everyone has been doing for centuries, and leave it to the reader to imagine based on the tone of the words, but now you have a third option: (눈_눈)

    • when your characters are in a situation that has a perfect meme expression for it. For example "flipping the table", ‎(ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ ┻━┻ or "why god, why??" щ（ﾟДﾟщ） Of course your character in the story won't really be flipping a table, and most of the time there won't even be a table to flip. But just inserting a meme reference enhances the entire feel for those familiar with it.

    • When you are writing dialogues between entities that don't have a face or even a body, for example, writing dialogues between a person and a system, you can't say things like "system furrowed its eyebrows", "system pouted", and the system can't even make gestures: "system facepalmed", "system shrugged", etc. This would usually mean that you'd just depend on reader's imagination or you'd occasionally drop in lines like "if system had a face it would be pouting right about now". But now you have a third option: ╮(╯▽╰)╭

    "There's a BL VRMMORPG original here that doesn't use emojis in her story and she's doing brilliantly."
    ಠ_ಠ Of course she is. Gems will shine whether they use emojis or not. They will just shine brighter if they can use them when they need them.

    Also, when you say VR MMO do you mean those MMOs where you actually talk to others in VR and don't use text chat like in normal MMOs? Because mentioning that as a counter-example here would be a bit... (◞‸ლ)

    "being unable to use it in stories here is not really a disadvantage."
    Riiiight. Not having a feature is really not a disadvantage. Just like how not having the ability to format text, and include links and images, isn't a disadvantage either, I mean what kind of a shitty author needs that stuff?!?

    Destiny_Aitsuji It doesn't work like that. I once fixed a typo in a chapter and once I saved the edit, my novel got blocked. Didn't even add any new emojis. The algorithm just reran on the chapter due to the update.
    But thank you for trying to be helpful.

    And yes, a good story can be told without emojis, text formatting, images, links, footnotes, etc. But does that mean we shouldn't have those features? And that the story absolutely cannot be improved by having them?

    Lastly, everyone here is treating a helpful suggestion on how to improve the system for writers as if I have committed a grave sin, and are suggesting something blasphemous. It is because of people like you that webnovel staff doesn't give a sh*t about listening to feedback of its users. Instead of seeing someone suggest a nice feature and then saying "yeah, that would be nice to have", you come to insult the original poster and by extension make sure that the feature doesn't ever get implemented. You are not helping anyone. You are doing the opposite of helping - you are oppressing those that are different by trying to curry favor with those in power.

    @Demonic_angel Yes, editors have it hard. But do authors not? Content editors get their guaranteed pay whether they have to unlock novels or not. But authors' livelihood depends on their novel getting enough exposure. How can you look at that conversation and only think "ah, poor content editors"?

    What? Content editors are poor because they constantly get asked the same questions like what support staff everywhere does all the time? Oh, but authors who stay up day and night waiting for a response/solution because their novel had been blocked in a middle of a contest, are definitely getting what they deserve! Burn them on the stake!

    Especially because there is so much clear and precise information posted everywhere on exact things that will get you blocked! (눈_눈)

    How could you even think that your novel can use stuff what others are using in their novels and function properly?!? How dare you! Do you deserve to get the same treatment as others?!

          LucyPanDora emojis, text formatting, images, links, footnotes, etc. But does that mean we shouldn't have those features?

          Get contracted. You won't get images and links, but you will get everything else. And I am pretty sure Contracted Novels are above the law and the system doesn't flag them no matter what character they use.

              RABBITICOL Contracted Novels are above the law and the system doesn't flag them

              They are? Oh. Hmmm... 😈 heehee. My Evil Overlord antennas are twitching to do something evil to my contracted Sunflower.

                  Idk what to say tbh...

                  About the whitelist/blacklist thing, the guy mentioned to be contacted via ping, DM or something and those who are behind the support mail seem to contradict themselves.

                  Yeah, there is an automated system with an algorythm to follow but they rely on it too much and use it as an excuse to avoid or not do any tedious work needed for whatever reason.

                  Not to mention the fact that the same algorythm could be coded to have those emojis accepted and yet is still being blocked unless you are on the so-called "whitelist" or contracted author for that matter. In this case, new writers have to atleast have their work at certain popularity and get the vip treatment just for it. We don't even know how the actual process of it works.

                  There is no real guideline how this situation is handled and depends really on the author who is asking and the operator on the job comes into terms upon it.

                  As for adding emotes or not, really depends really.

                  True that there are majority of no emote on most written works (with some exception to author notes), but there are still some that works well with them as long as it isn't used blatantly that it ruins the tone of the story which is quite confusing for rookie writers. Hence may be the reason for such restriction although I doubt it would be the main reason for that.

                  Just knowing not to abuse and moderate use of emotes and text arts is more than enough, people would just leave if they think that the author of the work is ruining the story with or without those stuff in it.

                  All in all, the point of restricting the use of emote and text art characters is either intentional and they have a backdoor option for it or the automated system they use is pretty basic that is limited to it's codes that has been made and was never touched again.

                  I would bet on the former for conspiracy reasons I rather not start about.

                  [If you ask me, I rather restrict emotes and repetitive words on review sections (which are most likely alt account rating bumps) which are supposed to be for people to tell if it is really good or not through critique (and yet they add the option for authors to be able to delete em lol).]

                    I understand the frustration. Yet there's a solution should the issue occur. It maybe not be an Ideal solution, but it's workable. Webnovel site is what it currently is.

                    Either adapt to the platform norms or expect to go through the process of having a book whitelisted.

                    I think we need to give our Content Editors credit for taking time to explain to the best of their ability, the way things are. I can see their good intentions are there. They handled themselves fine.

                    Remember CE's aren't like Yue-bot. They're human. They aren't technical engineers with intimate working knowledge of the platform. They have been granted some abilities to help us within a set process. Some might have better grasp of the process than others. Cut them some slack please.

                      Veronica8 what is the solution then? To not use kaomoji?

                      Adapt to the platform norms you say, but what are the platform norms? It seems to me that those norms don't exist because different mythical rules are being applied to different people. Some can have their book whitelisted while to others that whitelist doesn't exist.

                      Expect to go through the process of whitelisting? For every chapter update?? For fixing typos??

                      "cut them some slack"
                      You seem to be defending content editors from an attack? Where are they being attacked and from whom? Who is not cutting them some slack or not appreciating them? Am I seeing the same thread as you??

                      Why are content editors being defended over and over again from a nonexistent attack in a thread about a flagging algorithm? Are you implying that they are at fault for what is happening or that they are doing something wrong here? Because that's the only reason why defending them would make sense in this context.

                          I believe the "cutting them some slack" is referring to bothering them every single time the system flags your novel.

                          It's not their responsibility to ensure that one's novel won't get blacklisted even though they have the power to fix it. If an author knowingly tries to walk the fine line between triggering a system that can't be changed by CEs, then they shouldn't be expecting their butts to be continuously saved.

                          Frankly, I have no clue why there's a system that flags it. Maybe there's a good reason. But you can't expect the CEs to know how to fix something that they aren't personally in charge of.

                          So from the way I read Veronica's statement, it means "don't expect a solution that solves all your troubles cause they have limited ability", not that 'there are people attacking CEs'.

                            kazesenken Frankly, I have no clue why there's a system that flags it. Maybe there's a good reason.

                            Random bots were creating tons of Chinese/Korean/Japanese garbage/advertisement novels that would get into the rankings somehow and push down actual novels. So the people kept complaining and then the devs had a Eureka moment that went like: How 'bout we create a program that blacklists those entire languages and whatever else isn't English?

                            And that resulted in the birth of the now-a-menace. It was supposed to help authors and it did, but now it has turned into a problem. And since they have better stuff to do, they obviously never paid attention to it.

                            LoweCypher I would bet on the former for conspiracy reasons I rather not start about.

                            I would bet on the latter as that's how most of things on Webnovel are being done. The biggest example of them setting up something and then never touching it is this Forum itself.

                            Disclaimer: I made up the Eureka moment but I am pretty sure that's how it happened.

                                  kazesenken "bothering them every single time the system flags your novel"
                                  Do you think I am bothering them on purpose? What else can you do when your novel gets flagged? Solve it by yourself?

                                  "It's not their responsibility..."
                                  Then whose responsibility is it to fix it? Am I supposed to know that? If they tell me to contact A then I'll contact A, if they tell me to contact B I'll contact B. If that is not their responsibility then they should have directed me to someone who is responsible for it. If even they don't know who is supposed to be responsible for then how can I?

                                  And can it even be that not one of the 8 different webnovel staff I've spoken to knows whose responsibility it is to fix it? (Yes, I've actually stopped to count.)

                                  That can't be right? For a problem that apparently happens all the time, surely it can't be that no one knows who is supposed to be dealing with it?

                                  So then, what you are saying here is that not one of the webnovel staff holds the responsibility to fix an error caused by their own system? Then who is responsible for fixing it, God?

                                  Or, perhaps, are you saying that it isn't an error? That it was their intention all along to cause legit novels to get blocked due to an anti-spam algorithm? Seems kinda counterproductive if you ask me.

                                  Then, since it is clearly an error and someone should be responsible for it, the responsibility could only fall at the novel's author, right? So then, what you are really saying is that every author is at fault here for not possessing omniscient powers of future prediction? And for even possessing basic reasoning abilities that would dare assume that things that work for other non-premium novels would work for theirs too?

                                  "knowingly trying to walk a fine line" you say.
                                  At first, I wasn't even aware there WAS a line. Would you have figured out that there was a line if you clearly saw many other novels using emojis just fine?

                                  Got blacklisted.
                                  Then after getting whitelisted, no one mentioned that the novel would get blacklisted again if I continue using emoji, and judging by what everyone was saying on the forums about "once you are whitelisted you can use whatever characters you want", I naturally continued using the emojis.

                                  Blacklisted again. At that point, I asked, what characters are causing the error? Since I've seen kaomoji being used just fine then there is clearly something I'm doing wrong that others are doing right.

                                  And all I have gotten back is "we have no idea but we assure you that we do, so just use only characters found on an English keyboard."

                                  At this point, I was getting genuinely concerned. I can't just use "characters found on an English keyboard" as they put it. What if the next time I copy-paste my text from Microsoft Word there is some kind of character in it that webnovel deems as blacklist-worthy? Am I supposed to remember to check for every mention of fiancé to remove that é that word automatically puts?

                                  I needed to test this out, but since I couldn't test it out on my actual novel, I had to play it safe. So, I went through another novel that wasn't premium that uses kaomoji without any issue, just so I can check what characters actually work. Then I thought, oh, so it must be just emojis like this that don't work: 😒 because that novel was using all kinds of kaomoji just fine.

                                  So I removed everything that I didn't confirm that novel using with my own two eyes. And what happened? That's right, I still got blacklisted.

                                  At this point, I was sick and tired of it all. I went through my every chapter and removed every single character that "wasn't found on the English keyboard".

                                  Still got blacklisted. Why? Because I missed one! I missed one single 🤔

                                  So, right, yeah, I deserved everything I got because I "knowingly tried to walk the fine line" and damn, those poor, poor webnovel workers that had to whitelist me four times due to the oh so clearly explained problem in the system.

                                  Frankly, if even one person straight up went and told me "look, we can unblock you now, but that's only temporary, the next time you use something that the system doesn't like, you'll get flagged again. What is it that system doesn't like? I don't know, I'll ask the tech deparment. But in the meanwhile, using just the things found on a normal english keyboard should work? Why can others use it? I don't know, let me check and I'll get back at you." (and then ofc, got back to me)
                                  I would have been perfectly satisfied. But not a single one did that. Not a single one out of 8.

                                  There were some that were nice about it, and even said that they aren't familiar with the procedure and directed me elsewhere, but then there were others that treated me like I owe them money, pretending to be an authoritative figure whose words are law while clearly contradicting themselves every other sentence.

                                  And then, after the entire fiasco, I come to the forums to post a suggestion to do something about this algorithm, which would clearly be beneficial for all parties involved, and the response? Poor content editors.

                                  Yeah, you are right. Thank you. Can you now direct even half of that empathy to other people involved as well? Or maybe, I don't know, concentrate on the core issues of the discussion which is a problem with the system so that perhaps someone might fix it in the future?

                                  And no, I am not attacking you or anyone else personally, I am just getting very fed up with the general response I've been receiving to what should have been a helpful suggestion, so my words are getting edgy.

                                      What is wrong with having your story blacklisted anyway? If you want to get powerstones, rise in rankings, and get paid, then you should probably follow the rules and norms of the site that you want to be paid by. I agree with people being able to do what they want, but the platform also has the right to do what they want.

                                      There are a lot of other places you could write, so find one that suits you better... For example, I only write in Webnovel when I’m writing on my phone. When writing on my computer in try-hard mode, I write on a site that I like better (but isn’t good on mobile).

                                      In regard to emojis being essential for stories that involve texting or are cute/humorous, I disagree. That’s like saying a story needs pictures to convey ideas or imagery. The idea of a written story is using words to convey ideas. By the way, picture books to that too, just in a different way.

                                      You can describe emojis like you describe what a character looks like:

                                      “Hi!!!” her message read, with seventeen heart emojis at the end.

                                      That gives you freedom to do what you are trying to do without adding a bunch of 💜💜💜💜 in your text. I personally prefer that. You can disagree, but I don’t think it’s a monstrosity to forbid emojis. To me, it doesn’t even restrict your creative expression because of my example above...

                                      Heck, I like websites that don’t let authors release works that aren’t finished or meet certain minimum standards. As a reader, that is way less frustrating! This app doesn’t do that. You can release novels without a single complete sentence, and some people do (haha). I’ve accepted that a lot of what I read on webnovel will have a lot of mistakes in it that I’m not used to seeing in finished products. I also haven’t seen one ending to any story on the entire app (I also haven’t been here that long).

                                        shadowdrake27 17 heart emojis, damn, this girl texting is really passionate lmaoo

                                        :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:

                                        that's a lot of hearts :joy:

                                            shadowdrake27 I also haven’t seen one ending to any story on the entire app

                                            Bunch of translations finished, bunch of Original authors botched their ending with unsatisfactory excuses while starting a new novel, and some authors actually finished their novels with a satisfactory ending. But the number of finished novels is like a pinch of salt in a pond, and most of the novels here will never reach the mid-point, let alone an ending.

                                            Wonder how long it will take for this to change.

                                                LucyPanDora

                                                So? Now you know the solution to your issue. Just don't use those characters. I understand that you got the run around, but hey, welcome to dealing with customer service. That's what happened when the internet company connected the wrong house to my account.

                                                You got your answers from them. Maybe they couldn't figure out why the other novels didn't trigger the system. But they did tell you not to use the weird characters, but you tried to tiptoe around it. And then, you missed taking out a character. How is that the CEs fault? They whitelisted you each time.

                                                I mean, I don't get mad that I can't make a fancy table to display game stats for a character or include insert pictures like others sites do. Granted, you don't get blacklisted for that, but you work with whatever the site offers and chalk up mistakes as a learning experience.

                                                Look, I'm not trying to defend the CEs or anything. I'm not a contracted author. But anyone can see that when your novel gets blacklisted 5 times, then there's something going on and maybe they are getting a bit tired of dealing with it. Just try returning any item to a store 5 times and tell me the store doesn't get annoyed with you.

                                                    RABBITICOL

                                                    Thanks for the info! Seems like that is typical here, and it probably will be frustrating forever, haha. Some of the translations seem really good! That are pretty long though. Hopefully, we can read a user-generated good ending one day!

                                                    yaoyueyi

                                                    Yes, she is very expressive. A message like that would give me a headache in real life...

                                                        shadowdrake27 Plenty of great books have little visual aids. Harry Potter books have illustrations at the beginning of every chapter.
                                                        Are they necessary? No.
                                                        Is J. K. Rowling a lesser writer for having those illustrations? No.
                                                        Do they add anything to the books? Definitely!

                                                        On the other hand, you have authors that add snide sexist comments all the time and everyone forgives these guys for their culture or whatnot. They aren't blacklisted for putting down a woman for her chest size when an eye-roll emoji is blacklisted? For basically just quoting a typical chat of a character that would use one? Even the support staff used an emoji at the end of his/her tirade.

                                                            kazesenken You know, good customer service is about trying to fix a problem. Why is it unreasonable for an author to want to use an already commonly used format in her storytelling? The response reminded me of the response letter of the insurance company in Erin Brockovitch. Not that strongly, but it wasn't nice, helpful or patient. Certainly not empathetic.

                                                            Everyone deals with cr ap on a daily basis, but you know what? If you are going to sign up for support or service, be prepared to try to be helpful and patient, not defensive or off-putting. The author was not rude nor was she unreasonable. Support just decided to treat her like she was when they themselves were lacking.

                                                                RABBITICOL Good point, though good intention may not result to something everyone wants but we can also agree there are still hidden motives to it.

                                                                Like for say, "Since you guys don't like those Chinese, Japanese and other letters. We will restrict it but we will add something as an finger for your continuous annoyance." Something along those lines lol.

                                                                Ok, back being serious.
                                                                The issue really is the fact that (1) CE doesn't really have that much power and control over things whether they have direct contact with the users or not. (2) In addition to that, they have limited time and man power to do so. Ignoring the fact that they also have to follow certain company guidelines on what to do, hence the 1st point.
                                                                (3) Using automated bot system is good only as a support and yet they rely on it too much to do most of the work. Remember, this is not an AI but the very base prototype that is restricted to it's code and would require recoding if there are changes to be made which is doubtful whether they are doing it frequently (week basis) or rarely (only when they need to/lazy).
                                                                And last but not the least is (4) the new authors who keep asking for either the unblock a or perms to use special characters where their ideals clash with the first three points. Expecting for something to be given just because you asked while tying to bypass their procedures doesn't really help. It just slowly escalate until one side finally blows up.

                                                                Playing the blame game doesn't really do anything here but most of the good writers on my list never really complained about these kinds of stuff and just adapted themselves in to the site's "norm" until finally getting that sweet green flag to do whatever they want.

                                                                The only advice I could really say is similar to the guy above is be patient and gain it fairly like others (the boring white coat worker way) or just continue waiting for that gacha level scenario of keep asking and hope they don't erupt into making your situation worse than it is (fight me way)

                                                                Honestly, I'm not that knowledgeable to say how to handle yourselves in this case. Rest would agree as it is really up to you how you go on from here, whether you listen to our oppinions or not.

                                                                  If I may add to my last post, another addition is the support's lack of knowledge how to handle to situation as well as their vague response isn't really helping.

                                                                  As a support operator, they require to be straight on point without ruining the company image and yet most support operators in any sites does the opposite.

                                                                  This shows that they lack experience and capability to handle the situation despite knowing the issue. There are ways to deal with these stuff like contacting their superiors or those related in handling the issue concerned but the problem is most people has this pride mentality when working that they don't wanna ask for help from their co-workers. Thinking that they could handle it all by coming up with things.

                                                                  (I had experience working at this situation and I was the same, in the end of the day I told the supervisor in charge that the job wasn't for me)

                                                                  We dunno if this is the case for the operators on this site, but we can see that not trying to communicate with their co-workers or not knowing which person to direct the issue to may also have a hand in this scenario.

                                                                  Back to the being straight on point, the term "as long as it is English letters" is vague cause there are other formats that also use English letters which include letters that can't be found on others and this is exactly what instead solves the problem makes it bigger.

                                                                  Yes, none of both parties are nerds but as for the operator's side. It is part of their job to atleast know these minor details that would make their job easier to do. It is not required but it is a basic thing that anyone working on something computer related should know regardless if you are in a coding department or not.

                                                                  Idk what else happens in the background but as for work ethics, this is already a minus for me (although I was the same just for one day and should also be ashamed of myself).

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