I went on to the wayback machine and found that level system and Game elements are all used on novel updates before they were used on here.
therefor I'm going to go over there and ask about my question on there.
ATCkit
- Jan 5, 2022
- Joined Jul 13, 2018
- Edited
Darth_Xiane I disagreed with what you were saying initially because as I explained and even linked to there is already a definitive definition for the litRPG genre.
here is the definition of litRPG from its Wikipedia page "The term is a neologism introduced in 2013. The proponents of the term state that in LitRPG, games or game-like challenges form an essential part of the story, and visible RPG statistics (for example strength, intelligence, damage) are a significant part of the reading experience. This distinguishes the genre from novels that tie in with a game, e.g. those set in the world of Dungeons and Dragons"... "Typically, the main character in a LitRPG novel is consciously interacting with the game or game-like world and attempting to progress within it."
I thought "your definition of litRPG and therefor subsequent interpretation of the differences between the genres are invalid. but the definition given for what a system novel is useful,"
then I realized that you have provided valuable insight into why the term system has likely replaced litRPG. it would appear that the term litRPG was too vague and its original definition has been bastardized into meaning any book with a game or game-like narrative focus.
basically LitRPG has replaced GameLit. and system has replaced LitRPG for their respective definitions.
I then looked at the example you gave for your definition. it was good and really helped me to understand your and likely other's mindset on how to classify novels. I notest that while looking into your example that it uses the tag "game elements" and "leveling system" but not "system" on Novel Updates.
this lead me to the epiphany that these terms are now the new way to categorizes content that now would all fall under the new definition of litRPG. so you have litRPG with Game elements, leveling system, and system all being used as terms describing the elements found in that particular LitRPG book.
another thing I realized when looking into NovelUpdates is that the site dates back to at least 2015 and was using tags even back then meaning that the creation of this classification system can likely be traced back to there.
I really appreciate your thoughts on this matter and thank you for it. it has been very insightful.
Edit: turns out system isn't a tag on novel updates and the best tags associated with system/litRPG on there are
System Administrator, leveling System, game elements, Transported into a Game World.novel updates tagging system is actual ingenues and should be copied over here. for anyone who wants to know more about how it works you can read about at Cleaning up Tags forum post on novel updates.
if it was used on here from the get-go we wouldn't have had the ability for users to add tags revoked. because when people do add tags that don't belong to the book people can actually remove it. unlike how things are now where books still have tags like yaoi (A World Worth Protecting (has had that tag since at least may 2019) even though people have been saying it is yaoi for like a year now. anyway, there's a tun of more problems with the tag system some of them where addressed but it's still pretty shitty.
I talked about all the problems I observed with it on the forum at How Webnovel Browse/Browser/Content/Category/Tag/Tagging System is Flawed
- Edited
I know what a LitRPG novel is. now I want to know what are the differences between it and a system novel because as far as I can tell they mean the same thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LitRPGall I was able to find on the internet describing system novels were articles from the guardian and the globe and mail.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jun/24/systems-fiction-a-novel-way-to-think-about-the-present
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/the-systems-novel-new-and-on-the-way-out/article627338/they described the genre of books like this "it refers to a certain kind of ambitious American novel that attempts to portray how the entire society works, with particular attention to economic systems or powerful ideologies that provide a regulating framework for characters' actions."
the most recognizable name they gave that was associated with there definition was The Handmaid's Tale.
safe to say that their definition doesn't fit the description of any books with the system tag on here. just by looking at the list of system novels, you can tell it doesn't apply to them.
(https://www.webnovel.com/tags/system_novel_41000016_page1)any other sources I found using the term system to describe a book were from sites that are somehow associated with Webnovel whether stealing there books or aggregating lists of books like novel updates.
note that I may be wrong about it originating on WN so please correct me if I'm wrong,
I have 3 theories on why the term system is being used/ where it came from
#1 people read a couple of books and saw what cased the LitRPG elements in the books to occur was a "system". whether it was a personal system unique to the protagonist or a global system it doesn't matter all the books had one unifying element they all had a system. someone picked up on this and started calling them system novels. other people agreed and it became the norm.
#2 back in 2017 when the site just got started and the books where getting tags applied to them by the translators they didn't know that the genre name was and translated or selected it as the appropriate tag.
to back up this theory I looked at the first book I remember seeing the tag on My MCV and Doomsday and it dates back to 2017.#3 there are a few translated books that heavily feature the relationship between the protagonist and the system going as far as having the word system in the name of the title. this shows how prominent the relationship between the two concepts are in china making it natural to use it when talking about the book on here.
oh and before I go I just want to say yes I know about the tag "game elements" but the books under that tag don't all fall under LitRPG so I excluded it from the discussion. feel free to disagree though.
- Edited
Patricia_Hernandez_7480 mng hey guys sorry for the late reply I have been very busy for the last month and just got around to coming back on the forum. I haven't read the forum post MNG was talking about before (https://forum.webnovel.com/d/40195-non-exclusive-contract-question).
But I just want to mention what I know about it. from what I have heard about the practices it's even worse than Webnovels in house contracts. see this post from a wattpad author down below showing how bad some of them can be. https://web.archive.org/web/20200324165720if_/https://www.wattpadwriters.com/t/i-dont-know-what-to-make-of-this-offer/21977.
Edit: lucky I backed it up before wattpad nuked there forums lol.
- Edited
ThyUnknownSaint heres the links to that reddit post
MotivatedSloth I'm sorry to bother to ask this especially knowing that the post MNG is referencing to is out of date but what differences are there between the complaints put forth from that proposed contract and the complaints that we currently have here on webnovel about its contract. all the complaints from that post are valid when applied to either site from what I have heard. for instance
1st copyright: all works on webnovel that are premium are owned by webnovel because to get contacted/ go premium the author has to hand over the copyright.
2nd on free reading: this site definitely doesn't have the same problem as they do in China with legal pirate sites but it does share the problem of having any revenue produced from ads being taken by webnovel which is unreasonable. luckly they removed ad watching entirely as it really wasn't a good revenue source even when all of it was being taken by webnovel. as noted in your posted https://forum.webnovel.com/d/39823-alternative-options-for-locked-chapters/2
this site does have an illegal piracy problem but what paid content on the internet doesn't. (I'm shocked at how much those sites do take and how many there are literally every single time I go google for a books fandom page there's a new pirate site there its a serious problem)
3rd Copyright Revenue Sharing: don't want to get into that can of worms seeing as no one i have seen has brought it up yet and I don't want to get sued. luckily, currently, it doesn't apply to any original works from webnovels but the potial is there if the preconditions are meet.
mng what do you think of my argument i think it was a good add on to your point.
- In Coincidence?
TheAdventurer I guess that Webnovel stepped in and purged any recorded that it occurred seeing as the translator listed for it now is CKtalon. anyway, I'm surprised that someone would even bother to do this. guess it true that authors are paid better than translators that's the only reason why I'd think people would do this.
- In Coincidence?
SuperSilentSin your naive to think that. look at Steampunk Apocalypse! and Stronghold In The Apocalypse
Mao_Yuxuan if you miss just one day of upload the money is forfeit
- Edited
MotivatedSloth can you link to that list for me please.
also because I'm pretty sure your snoozysloth and I'm pretty sure you won't acknowledge that you are I'm going post this here to make you feel bad(IM VERY BITTER) I thought you where dead you asshole. I posted this to Steampunk Apocalypse! reviews 4 months ago (feels like way longer) as my last attempt to reach out to you and find out what happened.
3/5 stars
Don't let my score given sway you from considering reading this book it's just that it was likely abandoned by the author. just be warned I wouldn't recommend spending coins on it though because of the author left in the middle of the story in the middle of a story arc and without even leaving a goodbye note,That really hurt my feelings what makes it worse is I don't know whether he's dead or alive and I worry about him some times.
it has some grammar and spelling problems but not enough to make it unreadable.
it was filled to the brim with anime references in the start but started to take on its own identity in later chapters. it has a few clichés in it but that didn't take away from the enjoyment found in it.don't expect anything too thought-provoking or meaningful from this book it's just one of those ones that have a basic but well thought out plot with little in the way of filler.
one of my favorite books on the platform. sad to see it go. I fallowed it for months reading it when it updated.
its been almost a year now and I every so often looks at it in my library waiting and hoping for an update but I think that I have weighted long enough.
so Snoozy if your reading this goodbye I loved your work but **** you for doing this to me. lol
goodbyeCKtalon wow yay personal I didn't like it and never understood why it was so popular so that's why. I was amazed when a live-action version of it appeared on Netflix I was wondering if I had shit tasted or something.
so quick question I gather through this conversation that your original from gravity tails and that you're currently working for atlas studios. so is atlas studios comprised of old gravity tails translators?
- Edited
CKtalon wow that was way more insightful than I thought your post would be. THANK YOU.
anyway, I have another question did The king's avatar do badly I thought that it was one of the best on the site especially when you consider the fact that it was like the flagship book for awhile you even had a page where people could watch its anime.EDIT: NVM lol just remembered that it was still in the top 20 3 months after it ended
RABBITICOL well shit hong kong laws worthless now so I guess that means people are fucked? quick question does this post mean ill get arrested if I go to china now??? (because of that BULLSHIT LAW now in place)
CKtalon thank you for the information it was very insightful. I have just one more question for you is the change in tastes that you have been talking about why webnovel haven't translated anything from before the 2010s (at least I haven't seen anything on the platform before the 2010s)???
I was always wondering why you don't get an old but good hit from the early days of QiDian. if its because you're worried about a change in taste I think that you guys might want to reconsider just because it's old doesn't mean it won't sell it's all worth a try even if you think it will fail like what you did with dead on mars.
some examples I can think of just to show how absurdly old something can be yet still become a hit is this anime from over half a centery ago being released last year originally release in japan 1967 and having been remade in 2019 its currently ranked #330 out of all anime on my anime list.
CKtalon so basically you guys translate books blindly just getting the basic premiss and its statistics, not even a complete plot outline and you might even pick up stuff while it's still new and untested.
no wonder books that are being translated get dropped. not to mention how the site picks up works that almost immediately start dying after going premium (the readers were only reading because it was free).
you're assuming that:
First. things that are popular in China will be in the English speaking world. not to mention the possibility that it is racist or nationalistic which can ruin the reading experience of your users despite an otherwise good story.(there is a reason why Hollywood is self-censoring when they intend to ship a film to china)Second. that the reading retaining rates aren't artificially preserved from fast release rates are fast and people keep reading because the book keeps updating. (again look to see if your readers are returning after a break that should tell you the true value of the book)
third. just because people initially get hooked that would mean constant readers look at all the data. (are you referring to the trial reads on webnovel or the statics over on QiDian depending on which you were referencing to this point and my next could be redundant)
some advice before picking up a book for translation don't just check the starting statistics check the overall statics lookout for major drops in readership. ask the author what that section of the book was about or read it yourself because that loss in readership could carry over and potentially magnify when the book reaches webnovel.
anyway, I'm going stop now I just realized how much time I spent debating with you and you probably have work to do.
CKtalon yay I can see that happening it was still fairly good at that point and I was also holding out hoping for the author to get his shit together sorry I just assumed that you guys did the same thing Nyoi-Bo Studio did.
they picked up I found a planet just two months before the author called it quits. the author himself said it was shit in the post announcing that he quit and that it should have killed it way before then but that he kept writing it for the money he then says he earned 100,000 yuan from it and it paid for the down payment on his house then asks readers to read his new book. (what a dick)
(Nyoi-Bo picked it up at chapter 453 (volume 2 chapter 72 in china) it ended at chapter 492)the thing is Nyoi-Bo Studio should have been aware of the book's problems as well if they had read even a bit of it before picking it up, for instance, the author already wrote way before Nyoi-Bo picked it up basically advocating the nuking of the EU in chapter 100. yes, there is a lot of nationalism in Chinese works but this book takes the cake I don't think anyone in the English speaking world would like this book because of that.
you would also think they would also realize as the author mentioned that it was shit just 39 chapters before it ended.
I think what tops the cake is Nyoi-Bo studios actual translated that exacted post from the author and posted it as the last chapter to their translation of the book. (do they have any idea how that makes them look seeing as they are also profiting of that book as well)
CKtalon I agree with you on the fact authors shouldn't be aiming for the Minimum guaranteed system in the first place. it's kind of an idiotic policy in my opinion in the first place the way it's written now.
it encourages the fast release of chapters without taking into account whether the individual author could actually manage that burden. it could easily lead to the death of an otherwise good story.
I agree with your notion that near-constant and regular releases do drastically increase readership retaining rates. but that can just as easily be achieved by having a triweekly release schedule instead of an everyday release schedule. that's why I don't like the way that new clause is written. its like it was written that way for no other reason than to increase the chances that someone who is trying to get that money would fail.
it could have just as easily been written to ask for an update at least once a week with the minimum number of total premium words between 40,000 – 59,999 over the course of the month to be eligible for the $200. instead of what it is now.
and its clear that the author failing is Webnovels intention otherwise they would have written it like my example above.
another thing I want to bring up is I don't know whether this notion that books should be updated daily originates in QiDain or here on Webnovel due to the site originally being for translated works. (its a lot easier to translate at that pace than it is to write) but trying to enforce it thought that clause is dirty and shouldn't be happening.
even the authors who do daily release schedules take a couple of days off every so often whether for rest because of burning out or to take a step back and plan out the next ark of their story or to update their character sheet or some other tool used to keep the story coherent.by putting that carrot in front of a naive or desperate author you end up leading them to write without planning the story and you end up with a lot of filler, inconsistencies with prior established lore, illogical character development, interactions, and behaviors, and more problems.
it may work well enough for the first 60 days but as the author gets further in without doing any proper planning the chances of those examples to occur increase and when they get far enough in they make a really dumb mistake.
people then get kicked out of their trans of only reading and not absorbing the book and take a step back to see there was clearly something going one for those prior 60 days. they are filled with filler the character development has stagnated and other problems appear.
people get upset and leave and there goes all those readers who you were retaining thanks to your fast release schedule.
mng what do you mean when you say that? none of the books above were affected by "author rights"(please tell me what you're talking about)
all the works I talked about above were translated works that never should have been translated all their authors at the last chapter apologizes for the mess their work turned into.
is it like what happened to I'm really a superstar where it got banned in China?