Flaffy

But the problem is that many are just editing/translating on the side because, like you said, we are running our own hotdog stands. Hence the slower releases too.

In addition, ever heard of the saying, "Too many chefs spoils the broth"? Although not apparent to some people, the change in pacing, style, tone, and diction is noticeable to many others when there are multiple people editing amd multiple people translating.

Plus, when you're reading, you're reading an already/mostly edited product. You're just proofreading at that point...

I'll go more into details when I'm off work in 6ish hours.

    Though I do agree that its not streamlined for expansion.

    Edit to above post:

    Although not apparent to some people, the change in pacing, style, tone, and diction is noticeable to many others when there are multiple people editing and multiple people translating (esp when its a team of non-professionals with no style sheets and working for pennies). I just don't think Webnovel would be willing to invest in actual professionals so soon, as they're still trying to get into the English market. The cost alone is enormous for a true professionally-licensed translator/editor.

      Nou

      I have heard the saying before but there is always more than one chef in a kitchen! To make one dish takes many chefs, One chef make the broth, the other make the chicken, another making the greens boom you got yourself a Xianxia novel! lol.

      But no seriously it's not like you wrote, though I do know your choosing the diction here so the flow may be impacted but the story being told will not be. Let's just focus on spelling those words right before we jump the gun in expecting a certain flow. But what I said supports this by the way, if you have multiple people working on and I will say it... PROJECT it is better to have those leads whose names will be in bold at the beginning of the movie and those who are mention as Man #1 and Man #2. lol. These project leads will be in charge of the novel as whole any of those "less skilled" translators mess up, it falls on those leads, so I think it makes sense they actually train them and get that shiz in order. In my opinion this role should be an Editor who will question the different translators word choice etc. Meetings will be held every 10 chapters to discuss the upcoming chapters and as a group they come to a conclusion etc. It can very well work out. (this would make a great novel by the way just imagine, How Qidian Mastered Translation Business in the Western World[too long of a title tbh]. "Alright! everybody listen up we have 100 novels this quarter, I expect nothing but the best" says Head Manager. "You're now part of my team so don't use stupid words like base instead of bass if I see that shiz on my desk you're fired. Understood?" Lmao!! My imagination kills me)

      Anyhow you get where I am going with this, I can partially visualize it, when it comes to numbers I cannot say if it is profitable or not but yeah doable nonetheless. I definitely think you can apply the agile business method to translators and editors. It's originally for software development but it works as project management as well.

      https://www.clarizen.com/business-agile-methodology-an-introduction/

        Lonelytree The leads actually get paid hourly because they manage more than 1 project. The translators still get paid the same way before, but hopefully by word. If you really think its increased work without the return then hey, what do I know. I'm just thinking of ways you can optimize the process in the longer term without having to have such drastic difference in release rate.

        Like I said there is a flaw, and there should be a better solution than just leaving it as is. Though you have to admit, it would be a cool novel!!!

          Increasing the number of people working on a project increases the number of moving parts and requires more time devoted specifically towards maintenance. Translators often have different methodologies and preferences they use, and having three or so people translating means time is going to be required just to ensure they're consistent with each other, or you end up with choppy jumps and falls in quality on a per-chapter basis. I've actually witnessed this before as a reader, and it was legitimately disappointing at times to go to the next chapter and find out who it was done by.

          Throwing money and people at a project also has diminishing returns, and there will almost always end up being a bottleneck that reduces efficiency even further. Why spend resources on a single novel with diminishing efficiency when those resources—translators especially—can be put to use on an entirely different novel? It's more cost-effective, and they're not hurting at all for material to translate.

          Flaffy Translators and editors should be held in a higher regard and to do that there needs to be a better structure than what it currently is cause its disappointing at times to find that novels have so many different release rates from 23ch per week to 4ch per week. The only excuse being....what? Not many people like the novel? Then let's make that a training novel to expand your staff.

          In this particular instance? The translator recently had a child and can't commit all of their day to it. In other instances, because not everyone is doing this as a full-time job—this is the "hotdog stand" for some people, to use that analogy.

          Honestly, being "disappointed" that one novel is uploading at 23 and another is uploading at 4 is like being disappointed one artist is painting a lot of pictures and another artist isn't. This isn't coding, where there is a generally standardized process, a desired outcome with a very clear 1/0 pass/fail, and an end-user that isn't going to see specifically the constituent parts (so it doesn't matter who writes specific sections as long as it works). If that were the case, there wouldn't be so much variance between different translators, and automated machine translations could more or less handle everything.

          It's also really sad to hear someone suggest certain novels be relegated to "training" novels, as though they are less deserving of attention and care. Again, this isn't programming where faulty code can be analyzed, rewritten, and streamlined piecemeal where necessary. A poor translation sticks and requires concentrated effort on its entirety to improve, otherwise you just get isolated pockets of "good" that make the "not good" stand out more.

            ActiasLuna well what do I know about translating...it was just an idea.

            Besides no one said anything about throwing money at someone, translators make their own money somehow these days never said they should get paid more to do more. That's up to your own "union" to decide if you're getting treated unfairly.

            Also I already stated it won't be something random as you guys have it now but a team together who will work as a unit. IMO it's not like your writing a whole new novel you are just translating the words, then coming together for a meeting to decide if the flow of that chapter works for all of you. It would be a team effort and this is just on a grand scale. Maybe a team will start out with just 2 people and an editor at first. And a training novel, doesn't mean less deserving because at least the novel gets translated instead of it sitting there with NO CHAPTERS FOR MONTHS!!! I'm not saying they should submit a bad translation, someone said here that some translators have a slower speed, I would rather someone training to get better at translating take over a novel that NO ONE SEEMS TO HAVE TIME FOR than it just sit there especially since qidian already picked it up started translating and nothing happens after months.

            I also was not talking about this particular novel, just the qidian operation with translators and editors as a whole. It may be more effective to assemble a team to get things done for more novels across the board, not a make shift team but one that communicates with each other on regular basis to decide the diction of the novel. Along with a team leader who will maintain the flow which you all speak of thjough I have probably never seen.

            That analogy about artists is not really the same simply because pardon me if I sound offensive, I don't really understand what goes in to translating so as of this moment with my ignorance I don't consider translators as artists because all you guys are doing is rewriting an already written novel in a different language. The translated novel, the author is still the creditor for the awesome work. Translators to me are workers for a publisher or freelance people. A worker just builds things, by doing a particular job within the company, that's not to say just anyone can do your job but I'm sure many can be trained to do that job. You're not creating anything new you're finding words for other words. Now that job might be hard or easy depending on the person but nonetheless it's a job. The reason I feel disappointed is because the chapter releases for novels are so glaringly different for the same publishing company. Understand these are not released as books but if they were there should be dates for each book those release dates would have been set for a novel series for example that release might be every 6 months or every year, as the novel is already written like many on qidian are before translating. Another novel series with the exact same dynamic of multiple books would get a similar release rate of 6 months to a year, not 3 years just because they only had one translator working on it and that guy is now sick. To me that lacks insight for the company and total disregard for how the readers feel. When I logged into qidian first time I thought the novels would be in different places but had similar release times because it just made sense. Either all novels are close to 23 chapters a week or 4 chapters week. All I'm looking for is consistency!!

            I honestly believe no one has even tried something different in an effort to make it so that the novel van go on when the sole translators go off to do other things....unless I am mistaken but I thought most translators came from freelancing and they usually did their own thing.

            Billdoor is always saying that thing you said about spending money on a poor translation or put it on a new novel...well I would prefer before anyone picks up another novel you guys fix what's already broken. There are plenty of novels on qidian that need to be reviewed once more because there are already mistakes made by having the same translator do the editing for the novel, no editor for the novel or just plain carelessness. You make it seems like it's going to be perfectly fine, but there are kindergarteners mistakes in some of these novels. I haven't read all of the novels on qidian so I cannot speak for all of them but a good majority. I understand this isn't programming and you guys require a certain something that is making you all reluctant to work together but I think you need something, because one person working on a novel is impractical once qidian starts to translate more books unless you all go full time and even then I think if the process is the same where every translator just does what they want because that's their schedule then many novels will be affected needlessly because qidian put all their eggs in one basket instead of having a team or trained backups for novels.

              I'm tired reading long text, so I wanted to make one myself, then I realize I so lazy to do it.
              Then it occured to me, Why oh why, google is my friend, my dear dear friend who already accompanied me to lots of hardship. Then I google it 'the long pointless text', and I pick one, two, three links, that might have it.
              To my surprise, the did have a long pointless chapter of rumbling. And here we are.
              A copy of my search, which only the shorthest one, because I still have a decency.
              This text is a very boring text and I bet you will not manage to read the whole text since the only period in the text is the one that ends the whole text that is by the way so long and pointless that writing it is just as fun as the text becomes boring since it is so long and pointless and also quite boring since it does not happen a single thing the whole time it is going on which is very long so you will probably not even manage reading to this point which is somewhere halfway and yet you do incredibly as it is since you are reading these words in this long and boring text where nothing happens at all but you will probably stop reading soon as it is just too boring and long and pointless and I notice you are still reading my boring text and wonder how you can withstand it since it is so long and boring plus there is more fun things to do that I would prefer to do rather than reading this soulless text that is really damn boring and now even I am starting to get tired of it so now I am cutting it out.

                GregLuck LMAO!!!!

                Greg I will give you a hint to read my long monologues, just read the first sentence after the break. It says everything I want to say the rest of the words after that sentence are reasons why and what you should not think about the statement. I usually try to keep it in that structure, if you are lazy my whole post basically says:

                Flaffy well what do I know about translating...it was just an idea. Besides no one said anything about throwing money at someone, translators make their own money somehow these days never said they should get paid more to do more....Also I already stated it won't be something random as you guys have it now but a team together who will work as a unit....I also was not talking about this particular novel, just the qidian operation with translators and editors as a whole...That analogy about artists is not really the same simply because pardon me if I sound offensive, I don't really understand what goes in to translating so as of this moment with my ignorance I don't consider translators as artists because all you guys are doing is rewriting an already written novel in a different language....I honestly believe no one has even tried something different in an effort to make it so that the novel van (look at this typo!! Just shameful! that's what I get for typing fast on my phone) go on when the sole translators go off to do other things...Billdoor is always saying that thing you said about spending money on a poor translation or put it on a new novel...well I would prefer before anyone picks up another novel you guys fix what's already broken.

                Way shorter than my previous post eh? Just read the first sentence look at the rest if you still don't understand the sentence completely.

                  Flaffy
                  1. Is translation an art? I think this article summed up my thoughts on it: https://www.onehourtranslation.com/translation/blog/translation-art-or-science

                  1. To assemble teams in a way that you had suggested would cost QI as a company more money. For a team to perform well, it would require things such as coordinating with each other, meetings, etc. All these can be very time consuming, time which the translators/editors are not paid for as they are currently paid by chapter done.

                  This brings me to my next point. I personally think that there are only two types of translators/editors. Those who translate/edit for money and those who translate/edit for passion. The first group who work solely for money would most probably be less receptive to this idea which consumes more time for the same pay. As for the second group, well, they work for free (some earning a small amount of pocket money) as this is their passion/hobby. Even if we were to ignore the fact that most of those in this group consider multiple translators per novel is not desirable (for reasons stated multiple posts above), your idea would only work better when it’s a full time job (way too time consuming for it to work for translators who do this part time or are doing this as a hobby) instead of a passion project. So the only way to implement what you suggested would be to throw money at the first group, which at this point, QI considers to be not cost-effective. Of course, this is just my opinion as I am clueless on what the higher ups are thinking.

                    Limostn You could be right but as I said previously, if Qidian International wants to grow it will have to spend money anyway to hire more translators for those novels, or they could create groupings and get things done in a way where translators and readers can be burden free and releases can be ensured!

                    I guess I just feel like sometimes people don't really get the disappointment I have when someone says something and then doesn't do it, I feel lied to and it doesn't make me trust you more when you say "sorry but you had to do so and so", but instead I resent you. Especially when people go "we have our own lives too" yeah I get that but you should have thought of that before you committed to do something. I don't even blame translators anymore I blame their employers for allowing them this much power and control which they don't seem to be able to manage properly, this isn't all translators and I'm not saying they are bad translators or bad people, it's little things that slowly start to tick me off, everyone glosses over it and goes "well they can't do that!" "translators are doing this for you! be more appreciative".

                    The things that translators CAN do right now like find someone else to edit for them, post a chapter release they can commit to, and inform the readers when there will be a change in release, some translators don't do! So let's take away that burden they have and force them to have a separate editor, qidian sets the quota that they must be committed to for every novel and qidian has to inform readers when a change in novel release happens. Does qidian have the time to follow every novel I doubt it but if they do they should pick it up. At least with teams we can accomplish all that and more for both translators and readers. Especially since, and I remember someone said this before which I think is the most cowardly shiz I ever heard! A translator faced with the readers disapproval will pull further away from the translation or something to that effect. I come from a family where if someone has a problem with you, you puff your chest out and say "Whats up with you!?!" and sort it out not run away without ever doing anything to correct the situation.


                    About the Art thing, sure I guess but like I said, diction is basically all, the tone is usually set by the diction. I don't know if I have read a machine translation or not but I have read the way google translates on some websites, and it horrible! It's not even readable english at time, you just pick out words to get where you're going. Even so painters, singers, etc. many artists join hands with another artist to make things together, I don't think translating should be any different. I am only suggesting possible solutions I can think of because I don't want to be one of those idiots who whines and complains without at least contributing to how it could be better.

                    • Nou replied to this.

                      For the love of God, is there a tl;dr for this??

                      • Nou replied to this.

                        Neverfire7 tldr:

                        flaffy: instead of spreading out one tl & ed per series, with potential hiccups and slow releases, why not have multiple ed & tl work around the clock for one series, allowing it to be released faster?

                        Everyone else: because of reasons X, Y, and Z.

                        Flaffy: but then <insert more reasoning/potential work models>

                        Greg: look! Everyone has walls of text! I want a wall of text too!

                        Let me know if i missed something. It is, after all, a condensed version.

                          Flaffy

                          The broth example you gave me isn't how the saying is used. When one makes the broth, the other makes the chicken, and another the greens, it shows that there's a head chef who had already delegated how he wanted the broth to be made, and they're doing their part to achieve that outcome. That's like how we're currently right now: Head chef (webnovel) says "I want this novel translated to English. Here's the Chinese version." Chef 1 makes the broth (translates it). Chef 2 prepares the meat (edits), chef 3 makes the greens (pr). Final result = ready made broth. Each one does their part to fulfill an already-agreed on broth recipe.

                          This expression, instead, alludes to the fact that if there are too many people managing how they want it done, the end result would be a disaster. One chef wants to make a spicy broth, so he adds in spice. Another wants to make it sweet, so she adds in sugar. A third wants it savory, so monosodium glutamate may be added. A fourth wants a hearty soup, so he adds in chicken stock. A fifth chef wants lots of proteins, so he adds in a buttload of meat. The sixth wants to be healthy, so she adds in greens.

                          When you throw in multiple people doing the same role, you run into this problem, as described above with the six chefs. One translator wants to translate literally while another may just translate what the sentences mean/is trying to convey (for example: If the raws says "He is angry. His face was red", TL 1 could say "He is angry. His face was red" while TL 2 could say "With a face red from anger" while TL 3 could say "He was angered to the point where his face started reddening". That's just for translators. The style + tone changes depending on who's working on the piece.

                          Editors could also run into this problem: One editor could believe in making minimal changes to the translated text and to stay as faithful to the original text as possible while another editor may believe in making as much changes as needed so it makes sense and sounds nice.


                          Working as a team project is possible. However, you must know that if consistency is to be kept, it could actually take longer to work on. I've happened on a project before where different translators translated the same word differently each time. And it was all the same item. Can you imagine reading one chapter where MC is dual wielding blades, then have them referred to as "he threw those two daggers" in the next chapter, and then "He retrieved his knives from the ground" in another chapter? Same is true for other words, like "Peak/summit/apex/heavens". They could be easily interchangeable in translation.

                          Of course, all of this could be prevented if we were to create a super detailed sheet addressing each and everything in the story, and make style sheets, addressing how we want each story to be styled after. Then we would need someone to check through the whole story to see if the story is following the style guidelines and if all terms were consistently used. However, that requires time and we're just, quite frankly, not paid to do that. We're only paid to pump out chapters. Of course, that doesn't stop us from making our own reference sheets or do other things.

                          Back to the original topic, working like that in teams is super possible. But it'll require a lot of expenses, which I don't know if Webnovel is willing to foot the bill for. I think—pure speculations from my part—that Webnovel's goal at the moment is to get readers drawn in first to have some sort of revenue going (from ads?). They're investing heavily into this in hopes of getting a larger slice of the "novel-translation pie". Getting a novel to completion within three weeks would not be a goal, because then there are fewer selections to choose from. Fewer selections = fewer readers. Then after that series is done, what's keeping the reader from not coming back?

                          Sure, you may draw in people who like reading about harems, but what about those who absolutely abhors harem? What if they do like harem, finishes the book completely, then what? The next book may not be about harem, and they'll just leave the site for the next 3+ weeks. Those other translators working on that harem novel could have been translating other different series, potentially drawing in more people. I'd say Webnovel is just casting their nets right now, trying to see where most of the fish is gathered before fully investing in a deep-sea exploration at that site. These are just my speculations though.


                          In regard to the coding example, though, it's like translating a program from BASIC to C++ (aka, one language to another). Sure, the program is already written out, and the logic is already set in stone, and all you have to do is find the corresponding code, but tell me, I don't remember what else was said about coding. All I remember is that I didn't quite agree with the comparison.

                            Nou I honestly don't remember comparing it to coding(though i might have i honestly dont remember) I do know i said the agile method used for software development to optimize the writing and testing of code can be used for businesses to regular processes.

                            I actually view translating more like a process than building code. Like I said I don't have all the answers but just going around telling people "the shiz is fucked up and I'm really pissed off!" Gets no one anywhere so I think up possible(though not necessarily useful) solutions to my said problem.
                            My brain starts using the scientific method

                            Problem: release rates are not consistent
                            Hypothesis: release rates can be regulated by using a more formal structured process with a management team
                            And blablabla I never get to do the rest because I already feel better knowing I could at least make it known that I think the process can be better because I am dissatisfied!!

                              GregLuck That is true, but at the time I was unable to find the example mentioned here (plundering the heavens) on lnmtl.com so I gave a general method to find source.

                              Yes, people should try lnmtl first. It is higher in quality compared to Google/bing MTL.

                                checkm8
                                I never knew bing had a translator. The only other translator apart from Google that I know of is the one I use for translating russian (translator.ru)

                                Gonna try this later.

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