ValentinaKhan You seem to have lost touch with reality, as you perpetuate your opinions as facts.
When you reach a point where you believe that popular =/= good, you have automatically distanced yourself from an objective viewpoint, and instead are spouting nonsense about what YOU define is good or bad, based on YOUR standards, not much unlike the internet warriors, or the old men telling tales on their armchair, who know nothing but feel the need to undermine those around them.

There are many resources which define whether a transformation arc i should needed or not, but that there is even a debate to begin with means that a transformation arc is not the ultimate gospel.
You speak as if it is the law, such as how gravity bind us to the earth, but you fail to see that it is not the case.

If you look again at your past arguments you may realize that you have interwoven yourself into a tale of bullshit. And I don’t really understand where you find your audacity to judge upon other stories with such a self righteous disposition.

There have been many examples given as to why your theory is untrue, so I won’t repeat myself.
But just for good measure I will send you a link, https://www.scriptmag.com/features/craft-case-character-arcs

Get off your fucking high horse, can’t you see no one agrees with your statement?

      Hyowha Coincidentally, I've just been reading about narcissists who have no capacity to understand they could be wrong (read on, please, I don't mean you). It's sad in theory, but if you're in any kind of relationship with them, it's anything but; it can be downright scary. Something about the OP's insistence on his/her POV rang alarm bells, but maybe I'm just being jumpy. P.S. They don't like being called out or shown up. P.P.S. They like feeding off the negative reactions of others (it's best that we leave them alone). We should all be informed of these kind of stuff so we could keep ourselves protected -- just my two cents :)

      P.P.P.S. Might be advisable to lock this thread soon.

          Acutelittletrap Just to play devil's advocate, but many "classics" were unpopular at their time of publication. A couple examples are "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and "Moby-Dick" by Herman Melville. Of course there are the few that made it to the banned book list like "To Kill a Mocking Bird" and "The Grapes of Wrath" that are considered classics today as well. If you claim these are not good, well, there are certainly enough people who would disagree. I'm sure if we give "Twilight" and "50 Shades [...]" another decade or two, they will be long forgotten by all but our generation. I'm also certain that the classics of our time will be some obscure books read by few. Additionally, I highly doubt any of the webnovels we see today will become classics either despite my enjoyment of them today.

          Random plug: My hope is that R. Lee Smith can get some recognition, but with the triggering nature of her works, it'll never happen.

              KoraL this is exactly what I had in mind, thank you for voicing my thoughts which I couldn’t exactly describe.

                  Acutelittletrap
                  Popular is different from objectively good.
                  If you don't think there are tools to objectively analyze stories and you think is only about personal enjoyment en masse, say so straightforwardly.

                  Let's agree to disagree.

                  Hyowha
                  Do you want a links war? There you go:
                  https://www.scriptmag.com/features/craft-case-character-arcs#comment-279256

                  I already found you at fault of not reading what I wrote with the Climax in 5 acts vs 3 acts thing. Now I found you at fault again with this simple matter: have I ever said something different from "How to write a story"?

                        KoraL

                        I would never claim, that books have to be 'Popular,' when they first come out.
                        [I have never read these books.]
                        There is many reasons why that can happen, [Political= Bible] [Objective of the book=Satanic Text.] [Content in the book= Extremist viewpoints.]

                        A good example might be if someone made a book in the 1850s, about the pros and cons of slavery. This book might not have become popular until freeing slaves became a topic in politics.

                        But overall, unless your book is meant to changes peoples mind about something, or control a certain type of people/person.
                        I would say that the lack of being popular is an issue.

                            ValentinaKhan
                            Please, don't use a random comment on a random site to prove your point. Otherwise, it is like the anti-vaxxers. They found one studies that said that vaccine caused diseases/mutations/random things and now they rather allowed the survival of near-extinct diseases. This is supposedly a friendly forum, you can express your OPINION about a subject, your OPINION is by definition SUBJECTIVE and therefore, doesn't allow you to bash anyone disagreeing with you. In the real world, nothing is really objective so the very fact that you use that term for something like a novel or a story is disturbing.

                                ValentinaKhan I really am shocked speechless. Have you read the article?

                                And I explained focus you how a climax is not needed at the end and can be placed also in the middle, as evidenced by the link I send you, so I hardly agree that’s you found me at fault. You need to stop cherry picking points that suit your case and devolve them into straw hat arguments only so you can preach your skewed world view.

                                And please, when you link my article back, at least read though it or just say you do not agree. Instead you find fault in a place which has been answered in the given article.

                                I will just leave it at that, feel free to argue back, and I will stay silent.
                                Take it as you will, but there has been enough posts on this forum which the readers can pull their opinions from. As we both won’t find agreement, and I respect your opinion, even though you are wrong.

                                    Innovation

                                    I bought a gun. I aimed that gun at a target. I fired. The bullet instead of going forward went backward and hit me in the face. May I say that gun wasn't objectively well made? Or is only my subjective opinion?

                                    Now, change the gun with a book or any other narrative work. Something change?

                                        Hyowha

                                        Bloody Jesus on his cross! Did you read the comment I linked you? Story is a technical word which describe a specific kind of narrative. The article didn't metion any stories, but situations. Clear enogh?

                                        And again, Climax in 3-acts in not the same thing as in the 5-acts. What is a climax in a 5 acts is called Midpoint in the 3 acts.

                                            ValentinaKhan No. But is the gun really well made? However, that gun can only fire at 100 meters, maybe 200 meters. I wanted a gun to fire at 1km so for me subjectively, that gun is not well made, it is useless. I can use the opposite, you bring me a sniper rifle when I want a small pistol that can fit in my pocket. Both of them are useful in specific situations, but only one of them is well made for my need. That's my point and that is for a concrete object. A book is based on the imagination of its readers, something that is not even measurable. that's why I say that a book can't objectively be described. You could gather the 100 best writers and have them discuss a book but none of them will be able to say those arrogant words. Even making a book better for 90% of people could make it worse for the rest.

                                                @WEBNOVEL_OFFICIAL
                                                Lock please, no clear objective is found here. I think in general Valentina has pushed her viewpoint to hard and has aliennated the very people she meant to 'teach.'

                                                I suspect her of being a Narcissist, which is not really a bad person just a bit of an ego problem.

                                                  Innovation

                                                  There's a difference between saying a gun is well made and a gun respond to my personal taste. You may prefer a gun able to shoot at 100m, I one able to shoot at 200m. They are both objectively well made guns, they do their job, none of them shoot backwards.

                                                  Now, let's suppose we read a romance webnovel which proclaim to be a story. A story by definition implies a Transformational Arc of the character. We discover in reality our character not only doesn't change (if the character fails to change it may become a tragic story, we are still following the tranformational arc), but also that he doesn't need to change. That's not an objectively well made story. It's not even a story.

                                                  It may be a situation, but that's difficult for romance. Situation are usually used for genres such as adventure or action. (This paragraph is only a plus 'cause I picked romance as an example).

                                                  But...
                                                  We enjoy the tale nonethless, why? Because it's personal taste.

                                                  Nothing wrong with personal taste, but just because you like something it doesn't mean it's objectively good. The contrary applies as well.

                                                  Or do you think there are no tools or methodology to analyze a narrative work?

                                                      My final two cents.

                                                      Webnovels cannot sacrifice popularity because they are meant to provide income chapter by chapter. This makes it intrinsically more difficult to spend time in some of the phases since the webnovel may be dropped before anything "exciting" occurs. A successful webnovel must be full of hooks and cliff hangers (to the chagrin of the reader) until the story or the author has a stable enough following to actually develop stories in the manner prescribed.

                                                        KoraL What you said is eye-opening, thanks for that.

                                                        Also, guys, as entertaining as all this is, you're just letting yourselves get sucked dry. They have no capacity to admit they might be wrong and/or that another person's perspective that runs counter with theirs might be right (as in incapable, okay?), so if that's your aim, you are seriously wasting your life. Take it from someone who wasted years.

                                                        @CKtalon Don't feed the troll, right?

                                                            a year later

                                                            ValentinaKhan

                                                            Long Shot activated. Valentina, you there?

                                                            Anyway, it has been over a year since I have been reviewed. Recently I was going through some stuff and found what you have reviewed.

                                                            In the year since, went around a little and felt like I have broadened my horizons somewhat.

                                                            I realized some stuff. Sometimes it is not about the title or the so called years of experience.

                                                            This concept that was put forth- was it meaningful? Did it have content? Can it hold up?

                                                            It is quite rare for some stuff to stand the test of time- and in unexpected places too.

                                                            While I may not agree with method of delivery sometimes- and not everything is about the ends justifying the means- most people can appreciate a good play.

                                                            Welp, just throwing a pebble out here. All the best.

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