Webnovel.Forum

Innovation

There's a difference between saying a gun is well made and a gun respond to my personal taste. You may prefer a gun able to shoot at 100m, I one able to shoot at 200m. They are both objectively well made guns, they do their job, none of them shoot backwards.

Now, let's suppose we read a romance webnovel which proclaim to be a story. A story by definition implies a Transformational Arc of the character. We discover in reality our character not only doesn't change (if the character fails to change it may become a tragic story, we are still following the tranformational arc), but also that he doesn't need to change. That's not an objectively well made story. It's not even a story.

It may be a situation, but that's difficult for romance. Situation are usually used for genres such as adventure or action. (This paragraph is only a plus 'cause I picked romance as an example).

But...
We enjoy the tale nonethless, why? Because it's personal taste.

Nothing wrong with personal taste, but just because you like something it doesn't mean it's objectively good. The contrary applies as well.

Or do you think there are no tools or methodology to analyze a narrative work?

Hyowha

Bloody Jesus on his cross! Did you read the comment I linked you? Story is a technical word which describe a specific kind of narrative. The article didn't metion any stories, but situations. Clear enogh?

And again, Climax in 3-acts in not the same thing as in the 5-acts. What is a climax in a 5 acts is called Midpoint in the 3 acts.

Innovation

I bought a gun. I aimed that gun at a target. I fired. The bullet instead of going forward went backward and hit me in the face. May I say that gun wasn't objectively well made? Or is only my subjective opinion?

Now, change the gun with a book or any other narrative work. Something change?

Acutelittletrap
Popular is different from objectively good.
If you don't think there are tools to objectively analyze stories and you think is only about personal enjoyment en masse, say so straightforwardly.

Let's agree to disagree.

Hyowha
Do you want a links war? There you go:
https://www.scriptmag.com/features/craft-case-character-arcs#comment-279256

I already found you at fault of not reading what I wrote with the Climax in 5 acts vs 3 acts thing. Now I found you at fault again with this simple matter: have I ever said something different from "How to write a story"?

BravelyNovice

You don't learn how to write by writing. In the same way you don't learn how to build a house by putting a brick on another brick.

You need to learn the trade by others first and then you need to do a lot of exercise.
For writing: you read the manuals and only then you start writing.

Hyowha To shift away from anime’s, many detective stories and thrillers do not use the curve that you mentioned. More often than not, you find their climax at the end of the book, in which wither the culprits is revealed, or maybe even not.

I'd like to pinpoint many parts of your post but let's start with this, because I'm not sure what we are talking about anymore.

"you find their climax at the end of the book"

Have I ever said something different than the climax is supposed to be at the end of the story?

MishaK

That you reached the bottom, now you can only climb up.

Why don't you try this exercise?

I tell you:
Paritosh is old

Now you show me an old Paritosh.

Hyowha

Every story use the transformational arc. It's not a manual trying to impose a method, it's a manual analyzing the way humankind always built its stories. How many words you'll write or how many instalments depends on you: the Author.

Just think of every shonen anime, light novel or webnovel: after defeating an enemy, a more dangerous enemy will approach, and on and on and on. But every "arc" is transformation. Think of Dragon Ball here as an example.

Then, if a story drag itself too much is because of the author trying to capitalize on it.

MishaK

Fifteen days earlier…[Never a good idea to start with a flashback, readers want to follow the story as it unfolds. It’s like saying “Look, this happened but you are not at the real story yet!”]

It was only a couple of weeks into the marriage when Rohan took Sneha into the office to introduce her to his colleagues. Even though most of his male colleagues were looking her up and down, Rohan was bothered more about what Stella's reaction would be. Stella had been his girlfriend for the past five months. Oblivious to the dynamics of her husband and a woman she didn't know, Sneha enjoyed being the center of attention. [ALARM! ALARM! Inconsistent POV here! First is Rohan, then is Sneha. Never change the POV in the same chapter, or worse: in the same paragraph.]

Paritosh had a reputation for gossip, regularly listening in on other people's conversations, and he knew about Rohan and Stella and the conversations they had had in the past. [Boring backstory of a character. If it’s really important for the plot that Paritosh loves to gossip show it! How? Show him whispering to a colleague, show him peeping at a conversation while taking a piss at the toilet.]

Paritosh, a small pasty looking specimen of manhood [Horrible Third Person Omniscient Narrator, a judging one too. You should show how Paritosh act and let readers make their judgement.]

Stella was a good-looking girl with a milky white complexion; she was about 5' 2" [I died here! Would you describe your friend to someone who doesn't know her with “She’s 5’ 2’’ tall?” You’ll say “She is higher/shorter than me.” Right? How to show this thing in a description? With something along the lines of “She raised her sight to meet his eyes” Now we know she is shorter than this guy, or “She bent her back to enter the hobbit’s house” Now we know she is not a hobbit. It’s the basic Show, don’t tell.]

A friend of mine wanted to participate in the Phenomenal Author Evolution. So she asked me two weeks ago to help her to outline a story chapter by chapter.

This is what I gave her, complete with a crappy plot about a girl named Claire written by me, as an example. She writes Romance Fiction.

I used the Transformational Arc by Dara Marks. You should read her manual, it's a must for anyone interested in storytelling. It's called "Inside Story: The Power of the Transformational Arc"

Chapter 1: Meet the Protagonist and Inciting Incident
In the first chapter introduce the protagonist, describe who he is and what he does. Then, straight to the Inciting Incident: that is the “thing” who change the status quo and give the story steam. Start showing right away what the fatal flaw is.

Claire is a NY lawyer but she's not really good at her job (Meet the Protagonist). She lose a cause in court, she was defending Paul : a chef. (Inciting Incident)

Chapter 2: Call to Action and Defining Moment
The moment when the character is faced with the idea of having to do something (CtA), and then the moment when we understand what the story is about because we discover what the character's flaw is (DM).

Claire receive news: Grand-aunt is dead and left her a dilapidated restaurant. She hoped for her to run it and continue the family tradition (Call to Action), but she refused for a lawyer career. We follow Claire in her routine and we understand she is insecure both professionally and sentimentally (Defining Moment: when the fatal flaw is set in stone).

Chapter 3: Awakening
The moment the protagonist find out life sucks and he need to do something about it, if he doesn’t take action the story will end here...

Claire is fired, without even a proper severance pay, for losing the case with Paul and so she decide to take a loan and reopen the old restaurant (Awakening). Guess who will be the chef? Paul of course.

Chapter 4 to 7(o 8, 9, 10, how much filler can you put in?): Push to breaking point
The fatal flaw of the protagonist, his old survival system, is dragging him down. The protagonist needs to change.

Part of the neighborhood doesn't want to concede a liquor license, without it the restaurant cannot survive. Paul on the other hand doesn't trust her managerial skill too much. You can use the bickering between him and her as a comic relief and to build that hate-love relationship so cliché.
Claire step by step needs to become more assertive.

Chapter 8: Moment of Enlightenment
The protagonist is changed, he fought his inner demons and won. Now he can fight life itself and punch back.

Claire helps the local committee in court to block a project to dismantle the local park and build a new building. Out of gratitude she finally obtains a liquor license.
Even with Paul things are going better and now they go on dates.

Chapter 9 to 10: Grace
Everything goes great and our protagonist is marching towards a glorious future.

Claire and Paul go on a two-days trip in Connecticut, sleep in a nice bed and breakfast run by a nice old couple and finally, that night, they hump like rabbits.

Chapter 11 to 12: Fall
Everything goes south! The worst thing possible happens.

Claire is unable to repay the loan for the renovation of the restaurant to the bank. The restaurant is closed and will be put on auction if she doesn’t pay by the end of the week.

Chapter 13: Death Experience
The change of the protagonist was not yet perfect, it was not yet complete, and now he is defeated because of this mistake.

That's to much and Claire starts again to feel insecure about herself.
The stressful situation takes a toll even with her relationship with Paul, they break up.

Chapter 14 to 15: Descent, Transformational Moment, Climax and Resolution
The protagonist is defeated by the Death Experience, he suffers the worst his inner demons can throw at him. Until the Transformational Moment, when he will understand that not everything is lost, victory can still be grabbed. He needs only a final jump, a complete change. Time for the final battle, the Climax, after which it's time for the Resolution when we get a glimpse of what life will be for him from now on. End credits.

Claire is desperate, but she is able to raise again her head. He make up with Paul and together they confront Claire’s old employers. They are able to obtain her severance pay. They pay off the loan and can open again the restaurant. Happily ever after!

Note: of course it’s a happy ending! Readers of romance fiction expect that. You don’t want to end up like the fictional writer of Misery by Stephen King, do you?

LividEdge

Word Painting: A Guide to Writing More Descriptively
by Rebecca McClanahan

Characters & Viewpoint
by Orson Scott Card

There are many others, but these two are a good start.

LividEdge

That night every single inhabitant of the slums in New Casablanca heard [...] was going to make his way home. [327 words of infodump, do you know what infodump is? From Wiktionary: A long section in a work of fiction that reveals often tedious or dull expository information through the voice of the narrator.]

He was still frowning, his stomach was nauseous from all the trash he had to take out and his fragile and frail frame [Show me he is fragile and frail. How? Describe how his skin is stretched on his body, how he can feel clearly the bones of his rib cage while patting his chest to help himself to breathe.] was slowly [Some adverbs are often useless. Adverbs are often useless. Adverbs are useless. See? Describe someone who is advancing slowly.] seen advancing through the dark street.

His slow and tired steps always avoiding the waste in the ground. [Again, show and avoid adverbs.] Unfocused, he didn't even take a look at the endless sea of tags and graffitis spreading across the dam of steel that formed the street. [Nothing better to give a cyberpunk vibe, graffiti apart?]

Here an image of a cyberpunk alley:

'They're acting again like it's their fiefdom.'', sighed a middle-aged man [Fantastic! A middle-aged man popped out of nowhere and never to be seen again, didn’t you describe the slums as a quite empty space devoid of people while at night? The hell this grandpa is doing out late? Walking the dog?], his eyes looking way too calm in front of this seemingly normal scene.

Jamison_C

Yes, the point is I showed the protagonist is fat, I didn't tell he is fat.
It's a technique every wannabe author should employ.

Jamison_C

I wrote this for the “Writing Prompt Contest #44: Cultivation”, but I don’t have time so it ended right away. You can have a look at it.

A couple of cats watch me with a scornful look like I'm an intruder in their domain. They turn around and scramble up stairs, I lose sight of them in a moment. Only the stench of cat's piss remain.
I've lost count of how many cats I've seen today. They took control of the neighborhood. They were lying on the cars parked outside the post office, watching people from the trees next to the bus stop, and creeping between the black garbage bags outside the supermarket. When I got out with my shopping bag they looked at me again with that scornful look. Damn cats!
I climb the steps, the plastic bag rubs against the scratched wallpaper. Ling Xia live in an old building, with no lift. The stairs are narrow and I prefer to dirty my clothes brushing the wall than helping myself with the handrail: it wobbles.
I heave a sigh and climb the next ramp stair. I hope for Ling Xia to have disturbed me for something serious, otherwise I'm going to shove the baguette I bought for him up his ass.
Truth be told, he is missing from work at the post office for two weeks now. I'm a bit worried.

I grab the wobbling handrail and I give myself time to breathe, with a tissue I wipe myself from the sweat that soaks my neck and forehead. I unbutton my shirt and I resume climbing, fat rolls now bounce free at every step I take. I should have sent Ling Xia to hell the moment I discovered he lived on a fifth floor in a building without lift.
I reach the landing and I push the button to ring the bell of his flat. The door open and from the chink Ling Xia stares at me.
"You came".

The story is set in Paris (baguette), and follow the story of three people who discover they can cultivate thanks to certain things. A crazy cat lady has powers stroking cats, Ling Xia if he doesn’t wash himself, and our protagonist when he eat junk food.
They’ll fight for survival against an evil green energy corporation which want to use human cultivators as clean energy (literally plugging them to a machine and consume their flesh and bones). Everything for saving the whales!

Now, reading my short story, could you tell the body type of my protagonist?

luoshenhua
I didn't find any major fault in your work. Only, the starting description is a bit static. Your heroine sat for the entire time without moving a finger, descriptions are much more vivid when in movement.

LividEdge
Utter garbage.
Why don't you try this exercise? Shift the focus from the start on your protagonist and write the story from his First Person POV. Start with him doing his job as a waiter at the bar.
I'll give you the first phrase:

I take the empty beer glasses from the table and put them of the tray I hold between my hip and my right arm. I raise the ashtray, nothing below. No tip for the waiter. Stingy bastards.

(Hint #1: the stingy bastards are the three thugs who later will confront the blue haired guy.)

(Hint #2: We are in a cyberpunk setting, so why don't show something cyberpunk? Maybe the three thugs have neon tattoos?)

Klays2909

I wake up and slowly open my eyes. [Adverbs are most of the time useless and sometimes laughable, like the infamous “running quickly”. Cut it.] I am in a dark room who is mmm [sigh] kinda creepy. It seems to not have been used for the past last years. [Show me this room in a dilapidated house. How? Using the five senses. Even in a pitch black condition our protagonist could be laying down on the floor and feel the wooden boards covered in dust with his fingertips or smell the stench of mold in the air.]

" Where am I" I ask system [The dialogue tag is useless in First Person POV when “I” is speaking].

" host you're in an abandoned house! [If you made a description of the room before, now the system will look like an idiot. If you want the system as an idiot then is a good thing, otherwise cut it. This may even help you to write a better dialogue like “Host! You’re in an abandoned house!” “Thank you, Captain Obvious. Are you running on Windows Vista?” “You big meanie! sadface.png”.] First let me transfer you the data of this world " [Not a fan of the data transferring thing, looks like our protagonist gets plugged in somewhere with a USB device. This open also the door to a lot of infodump like you can see in next paragraphs. Why not use the system as a quest giver but without much foreshadowing? Maybe it is a moron, maybe it is an antagonist.]

Last thing.
You use “...” and even «...». You need to choose one and stick with it.
Also, if you need to talk to communicate with the system this can be a problem. People who are caught talking with beings nobody else see usually end up in only two ways: in a mental ward or leading the armies of the King of France.

ArcaneDragon

It takes time and a lot of study, but writing is a craft than can be learned as you learn carpentry.

Jamison_C

Here you go:

The Prologue was simply unbearable, why on earth you thought it was a good idea to write a wall of text of direct dialogue with no dialogue tags and no description?

So I moved to chapter 1. Let’s say the prologue never existed.

A man in radiant armor [radiant means “Sending out light; shining or glowing brightly.” Is an enchanted armor? If yes describe it as such, otherwise change adjective or cut it if the state of the armor in not important plot wise.] adorned with Suanni motifs [I looked for this Suanni in all the published chapters with Ctrl+F, never found again. Really? What the hell is a suanni motif? Describe if relevant or cut it.] rode through the spatial gate. [Again, describe things! This gates are relevant to the story right? They are used as primary mean of travel I suppose, right? Then give them a bit of love and give us a concrete image of them.] As he surveyed his surroundings, his pupils flared with the light of the sun. Celestial energy swirled around the man as a majestic aura emanated from him. [I won’t imagine celestial energy and majestic aura, it’s your job to make me see them both. If I need to imagine everything myself I could just stare at a blank page. The only thing I imagine now is him going around glowing like a Christmas tree. Are we sure it’s a good thing to make him glow like that? His pupils...light of the sun is horrible.]

An ornate indigo scabbard hung at the man's side with the insignia of three leaves carved upon it. [One noun, one adjective. No more. So cut ornate, and then cut indigo as well. Why? because you describe the scabbard in the next part of the same sentence.] Detracting from this image was a very normal looking sword handle. Unadorned and plain but giving off an aura of being well-cared for. [Normal looking is lazy writing, and again we have an “aura”...You want to express that despite having a rich scabbard the sword inside is ,at first sight, cheaper but still loved by his owner? Then you should write something like “From the scabbard sticked out a hilt with an iron guard and pommel, and a worn out wooden grip that the man stroked while walking.” It’s not the best but take note that I used the specific terms to refer to a “sword handle”.]

As the troops finished transitioning [transitioning because they are using a spatial gate, right? Too bad you never described this spatial gate or how it works.], many of them bowed in the man's direction before heading to their positions. [Not even in absolutist France soldiers bowed to kings and princes while on duty, they did a salute. It’s like “sword handle” instead of hilt, you need to research things out before writing.]

ASlyDrake

Since you took it so bad I removed the review.
But I took the liberty to make a more in-depth editing of the first three paragraphs of your work.
It's up to you how to take my advice to polish your writing skill.

Chapter 1: The Almighty Anura
Rain poured down incessantly over a dark and ominous valley that was nestled between two towering mountains. Through the drizzle, one could faintly make out a colorless wetland, [Starting with weather and ambient description is boring, start your story with a Bang! Or if you prefer “in medias res”] which most of the Origo players called the Bog of Despair. Whether this vast expanse of death and decay had ever had another name was unknown, as it had never been claimed by a kingdom, nor anyone else. [Infodump right here, and not even too clear. I know that Origo is an online game thanks to the synopsis but you don’t specify it here. It’s just confusing. This “Bog of Despair” is useful to the story? It’s a recurrent location? Or we are just introduced to this place once? Maybe you should just cut it out. In any case this is not the right way to describe it]

Under the splatter of the raindrops, a ragtag group of warriors and mages were trotting at a medium pace,[Trotting by definition is between walking and running, no need to specify “at a medium pace”. Medium in relation to what? Also, trotting is used mostly for horses, are they on horses?] unperturbed by the onslaught of water[Repetition of “Under the splatter of the raindrops. Cut it] that had soaked them to their bones. Their expressions were filled with exhaustion, [Show me they are exhausted and soaked, don’t tell me. How? Make them stumble and fall into the mud. Make them shake their mantles to remove the water. Make them gasp for air. Make me hear the heartbeat in their ears. If they are running on foot...or are they on horses? See the problem above.] as if they had been running like this for days. [Redundant simile, just show they are exhausted]

At a glance, the group consisted of nine people. Two female elf twins were at the forefront, acting as the group's vanguard. [Who’s speaking here? Casper the Friendly Ghost holding a camera and recording the scene for us? Third Person omniscient narrator died in the XIX century, surviving only in comedy and with the lazy authors] They were dressed in black leather clothes that clung to their bodies, each armed with a set of short blades. [Describe only what is useful to the story, do we need to know how they are dressed and armed? Do we need to know it now? If we are not going to need this information in the next paragraph (or worse, never), better cut it out.] Their eyes darted to and fro, as they scouted the area ahead for any danger.