Webnovel.Forum

Tomoyuki Of course I am. Because we writers only earn 2 cents for every 200 words. We earn like 20 cents per every chapter (considering an average of 2,000 words per chapter). TWENTY CENTS! And you're saying we should earn less because we...are amateur?! Why you don't you ask us to write for free then? Oh, you want us to earn like...I don't know, 1 cent for each chapter that we spend a couple of hours writing?!

Should i point to you that a lot of works (novels, comics, etc.) that posted for free currently? Even those that you mentioned as examples.
https://www.webtoons.com/ - hundreds of comics are free.
Almost all of the Asian novels, that you mentioned, were posted for free at the beginning with tens of volumes for free, for example, "Kumo Desu ga, Nani ka?" has 555 free chapters here: http://ncode.syosetu.com/n7975cr/. it's 20 volumes or something.
Lazy Dungeon Master - https://ncode.syosetu.com/n5490cq/ 455 chapters with 31 volumes for free, and the author still continues his WN for free while publishing LN version.
Tate no Yuusha no Nariagari - http://ncode.syosetu.com/n3009bk 963(!) chapters for free.
Dungeon Defence - 5 free volumes, with 300+ chapters.
I could go on for a long time, there are thousands of examples like that. Especially with Japanese novels.

IET got his contract in the middle of his first 6 million characters novel. So, he wrote, chapters with like 3 million characters for free, Coiling Dragon that you mentioned are his third novel. By the time he became a full-time author, he wrote like 20 million characters for all his novels.
Do you aware how many Er Gen wrote before he got his first payment?

One of the books that i liked (and bought later to read redacted versions): https://thegam3.com/ 6 whole books posted for free.
A lot of professions/jobs have a non-profit beginning stage. That sometimes lasts for a year, at least.

I'm not saying that all of the authors should absolutely go through that free work period, but there is nothing wrong with doing that at the beginning to establish a reputation and earn your name. And with all of those examples, we could see that it's possible to start as an author by working for free at the beginning. And nothing wrong with it.

Tomoyuki And here you are whining about how we are over-earning, or over-charging readers.

Wait, wait. That's not true. First thing that I said - was an objection to a statement that a job as a writer are really hard. I made a comparison with jobs that i think are really hard. I had an answer like "try to write X words every day, for 4 hours", which is (if you actually consider yourself an author, and writing as your job) are literally means "try to do your job for 4 hours every day". Topic of conversation got shifted from that, but it wasn't a conversation with you, it was with some rude blockhead, who starts his first reply to me with insults.

I'm against prices for SS here, but it's webnovel who pays you a portion from those SS. And determines how much exactly you gain from it. They can raise prices 2x time, and pay you 2x less if they want, then you will argue that prices for SS are too cheap coz you earn so little?
Plus I can even like your novel, read it first thing every day, and it will be paid with free SS (they gain priority). So you gain less than a worse novel that i read at the end with bought SS.
I think that prices are too high, and Qidian didn't have any regional system, so readers from countries with monthly income $100-250 must pay the same $10 for 500SS (which is a lot for them).
I think that there is no system for buying a lot of chapters to catch up. Spending $20-30 a month to read novels that i like, it's possible. Spend $300 to catch up to the last chapter for one novel only, while it's still not finished - I'm sorry, but that's too much, at least to my country with my salary.
I think that the whole system here unbalanced and unpolished, while you are defending it.
Edit. And i don't think that recent changes to free SS wrong. It's a change, and it's a movement somewhere from the current state. But i think that it's done poorly, that they changed only one side of a system, which should be balanced as a whole.

Exinaus I think that prices are too high, and Qidian didn't have any regional system, so readers from countries with monthly income $100-250 must pay the same $10 for 500SS (which is a lot for them).

Not gonna go into discussion with you about all the other stuff you wrote because some of your stuff make sense although it could have been delivered more differently in the other thread. And not to mention, you still owed me a receipt.

But nevermind that, what I wanted to say, in regard of your remark that I quoted above, is that they'll probably have something like this in place along with these new changes. A few months back they forced their app users to give the app permission to track their device location. And the reason why I'm even more suspicious of this now is because I've just learned that some people got a 60% sitewide discount, whereas I, and some other people don't get it. Now I'm just waiting for a verification from those users if they live in the same country/region as me.

Exinaus Oh, the system has problems, there is no doubt about it. I'm not defending the system. I'm defending the current price of 1 Spirit Stone = 2 cents, because that's currently what authors earn.

Should writers establish a reputation first? Of course. We all start off writing for free. I'm not arguing against that. In fact, I'm pointing out that that's how the current system works. Nobody gets a contract and starts to write. you need to prove that you can consistently update, your work must be popular, you must write at least 50,000 words before you're even considered a contract. Also, you also need to establish a following, have a lot of views, etc. before you're even considered a contract. I'm not saying all amateur writers should be paid. If they post their books for free (which they do), and get a following from there, then great. In fact, that's how the system works. I came from other websites (got hounded out from them because people hated my work, harassed me and forced me to delete my stories...probably because I'm just horrible at writing) where I posted entire stories for free. I ain't charging people for those stories, I posted them for free. Am I saying I should earn something from that? No.

All I'm saying is that the current rate is a reasonable rate. 2 cents for every 200 words, 20 cents for a 2,000-word chapter is decent. That's all I'm defending. That's tied to writers' income, and that's why I don't believe it's too expensive - if you compare it to professional writers, guess what? They earn several times more. I literally gave you an example of how professional writers are earning 10 cents to $1 per word, as opposed to amateur writers earning 2 cents per 200 words. And that price is reflected somewhat here - you pay $6 for a 60,000 word webnovel here, as opposed to $12-15 for a 60,000 word novel from a bookstore. It's much cheaper because the quality here just sucks, there's no professional editing, etc. (though in the case of Japanese light novels adapted from webnovels, no amount of editing helps). How exactly is selling amateur novels for less than half the price of professional ones too high?

My statement about a writer's job being hard was made as an objection to some prick who scoffed at me for saying that writers put in hours to write. He seemed to imply that we can magically make chapters appear at the snap of a fingers, or write one out in a few minutes without needing to invest much time into it. You're the one who jumped in and made comparison about other jobs. Are those jobs more difficult? Well, obviously. Do they pay a lot more? Yeah. That's a given. But I never said anything about those jobs? I never said we should earn as much as those jobs? I was merely pointing out to that guy that we do put in hours of labor into writing, so what right did he have to make light of our work and claim that we don't spend any time in writing at all? Now, I'm not against criticism, but when someone scoffs at writers and claims that we don't spend any time working at all, implies that it's extremely easy for us to maintain daily updates and churn out chapters, and thus don't deserve to get paid, of course I'm going to challenge him to try and write. Just like how you challenge another person here to swap jobs with you and try being a surgeon.

Tomoyuki

Time spent is not equal to the result.

Also no, let's pull up the work of a best selling author.
https://www.amazon.com/Way-Kings-Brandon-Sanderson

This book's hardcover version is $15 USD. The book contains 1008 pages. Each page is considered 250 words,
Rounding down, that would put the book at around 250k words. Both web novels and most books allow for a small amount of prepurchase reading, thus "free content is not a factor."

Also, side note you can buy the stormlight archive trilogy which would around 750k words for $25 USD.

Using crude math, if brought in at WN prices this book would cost $25 USD. And, what we are obtaining is not a best seller, not an edited novel, not something which the author put the same amount of effort into writing.

Brandon Sanderson writes around 2k words a day, many webnovel authors claim to write around 5000 to 12000.

So, sorry I'm not paying more than a best seller for some justified word vomit. (One can even ignore kindle unlimited which smashes the face of WN prices. Also note that I used a hardcover not even the paperback or mass-market which is around $7.

Also, it's not about what the writer makes, it's about what the customer pays. All methods of publication, have costs, self, tradition, and even WN.

So, your WN writer claims to write a full novel in 10 days, while the traditional writer, pushes one in x8 the time. Then factor in the difference in editing etc.

Tomoyuki

If your work is not productive, you don't make money. Amazon or any other vendor is not responsible for a writer's profits.

These writers are not employed nor are they providing a service. Honestly, they are salesmen who sell their books. At the end of the day, your friends ignored that one must have good marketing, and a product to sell.

Just because you work 16 hours in a day, does not mean I have to pay you if I don't want to.

(And, WN is not like amazon. As WN, is not a vendor it's a publisher.)

Acutelittletrap Writers are not providing a service. Are you bloody serious?

Then don't read the books. What the f, dude. So you want people to write for free?

And no, I'm not saying you must pay me if you don't want to. However, if you're going to read and enjoy something that I put 16 hours into (I can't believe you claim that's not a service), then you sure as hell better pay for it. If you don't want to pay for it, then don't read it. I don't care. I'm not forcing you to read my book, but you don't get to read it and then declare that you're not going to pay for it.

Do you go to a restaurant, eat the food there, then walk out without paying? Do you go to a cinema and watch a movie without paying for a ticket?

What kind of attitude is that? "Just because people work to make the movie, it doesn't mean I have to pay if I don't want to." THEN DON'T WATCH THE MOVIE! Where do you get off, watching the movie and then declaring that you don't have to pay if you don't want to?

@Rianolinon
1. Don't twist my words, this is not about people getting paid. (Brandon Sanderson, is a millionaire.
And so is the author of Harry potter.

Yes, you can borrow books, libraries have been out for hundreds of years... And, that is not the topic. I work hard for my money, and I don't spend any of it here because the product sucks.

Just because you wrote something, I have to pay for it? No, I won't read it and you won't get paid. Or maybe I would, if you had reasonable prices, but given (WN) does not, I'll take my money elsewhere. Why because I fucking worked for my money. So, I will dam well spend it how I fucking, please.

And, no self-published authors are salespeople or better-said businessmen/women And, I never said salespeople should not be paid what type of stupid logic is that?

Get it? If I don't read your novel, you don't get paid. If you charge to much, I don't read your novel and you don't get paid.

Acutelittletrap If you are not reading anyone's stories, then obviously you don't have to pay for them. Duh. I don't even know what you're trying to do here.

No one is asking to get paid just because they write. All I did was point out that if you read someone's story, you should pay that person because he put in the hours and work to write that story for you to read. Obviously, when I'm talking about payment, I'm talking about readers who have actually read the story, who should pay for the writers for writing the stories that they read. That is a service writers provided. If readers consume a story for entertainment, they should pay for it. Otherwise, why should he spend hours writing a story for the reader's entertainment or enjoyment if he gets absolutely nothing in return? He might as well spend his time doing other things then, maybe watch anime or read manga, or hang out with friends. But no, he chose to write so that these readers have something to read for entertainment. But then now you come in with this weird claim that you're not reading the story. Wtf? If you're not reading his story, if you're not paying to buy his story, why are you complaining that he is getting paid by other people who buy his story? Like, seriously? What exactly is the point you're making now?

This is not about people getting paid? Then what exactly are you even whining about now? No one, and I repeat, NO ONE is forcing you to buy and read something you don't want to read. If you don't spend any of it here because the product sucks, that's your prerogerative. Has anyone forced you to buy anything you don't want to read? I don't see anyone saying that you must pay writers even if you don't read their stories. No one is telling you how to spend your money.

You're the one coming here and saying writers should not be paid. And now you're backtracking and claiming that you are not saying that, and make up some weird argument about having the right to spend your money however you please, and that you have the right to not spend money here and not read here. No one ever said otherwise.

Harry Potter, by the way, has been out for over 10 years. 12, actually, since the last book first came out. And do you know how much they cost back then? The first three books cost about $15, and the next four books cost about $30 each. The first three books were about 300+ pages each, and the next four books were about 600+ pages each. And they cost $15 and $30 when they first came out. Of course they are sold cheaper now, they have been in circulation for 10 years. How many of the stories on Webnovel are older than 10 years? And they are sold less than half the price of Harry Potter novels when they first came out. Yeah, Harry Potter books are professionally edited, but that's why they cost twice the amount of novels here when they first come out (for the same length).

Fair to the consumer? You're paying much less for amateur webnovels than you are for standard new novels, and that's because of quality, etc. I can point to you other examples. Black Library, which publishes Warhammer 40,000 novels, sell eBooks from between $12 to $18, depending on the length. For the same length you can buy lower quality webnovels here, for about $6-$8. Yeah, they suck. They are unedited. But you get what you pay for, and they cost like half of professional stories out there.

Also, "unfinished" is such a deceptive term. Most professional stories are not "finished" either. You buy them when their volumes come out. When Harry Potter book 6 came out, people had to wait 2 years for book 7. No one knew for certain how long Rowling would take to come out, but was she obligated to write book 7? No. What about Martin and the Game of Thrones? Just because you want the next book doesn't mean Martin is obligated to write it and sell it as soon as possible. Here's an article on entitled fans demanding for a sequel to "unfinished" stories: http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html

What are you paying for, then? You are paying for the chapters and volumes already in existence. It doesn't matter if it's an amateur or professional writer - you don't buy a novel just because you think there's a guaranteed sequel. People didn't buy book 5 or 6 of Harry Potter and then complained about it being unfinished. They patiently waited for Rowling to write book 7. Similarly, if you buy 100 chapters, you are paying for those 100 chapters. You are not paying for 200 chapters. You have to wait for 101-200 to be written and published. You are paying 20 cents today for a chapter that just came out today, and your 20 cents does not include whatever chapter that may or may not come out tomorrow. If you don't like the uncertainty, then you don't have to buy the stories, which are already cheaper when you compare it to new professional stories (about less than half the price). No one is forcing you to buy them.

So I honestly have no idea what exactly you are whining about now, if you claim that you are not against writers being paid. They do a terrible job, yes. Their stories run the risk of being unfinished, yes. They are being paid way less than professional writers (amateur writers get paid 20 cents for every 200 words, as opposed to professional writers who earn $1 per word). Obviously. No one is protesting against that. You can choose not to buy and read their stories, which...is what you are doing. So...what exactly are you whining about? That these writers are being paid for writing terrible and unfinished stories, and you want them to not get paid?