This is my first thread, so please bear with and alert me of any misuse of tags or whatever. I wanted to throw an observation/question out to my fellow writers on this app: how many people put thought into the narrative and perspective? That is to say, how many people think about how the story is being told and “who” is telling it?

I have noticed that a lot of novels on here (not all, but a lot) have strange narration. Usually they include things in their novel like fourth wall breaks, which is when the narrator (or a character) talks directly to the person reading the novel. They also change do a lot of mind reading of multiple characters, meaning telling you what multiple characters are thinking. Here is an example of both in order:

  • He backed up, and you know what? He actually backed up off the cliff. Can you believe that? (“You” is the person reading this).

  • Mark was scared, but not as scared as Kyle; meanwhile, Alyssa was more frightened than both.

“We are in trouble,” mark thought.

“We are going to die,” Kyle thought.

Alyssa was too scared to even think.

(Notice that nothing is explained about what is happening, or what anyone is doing, just what they are thinking)

I find this distracting because it hurts immersion. If people don’t talk about that here, it means that the reader has their “mental picture” disrupted by something that isn’t a part of the story. Something calls their attention away from what is happening in the story and to the fact that they are reading a story. What do you all think?

    Tomoyuki

    When done intentionally, such as in Deadpool, it can be. Deadpool always does it to comedic effect. Some places list this as one of his superpowers. In my opinion, it is his greatest power.

    In a serious story, such as Batman, fourth wall breaks would not go over as well. Serious fourth wall breaks don’t happen a lot. I can’t think of any. Worse, unintentional wall breaks that are a force of habit are distracting to me.

    Let’s go back to Deadpool. The movie pauses and Deadpool says something funny, or he cues a flashback. It makes sense and is a funny way to advance the plot. You can laugh and think, “I can’t wait to see why he has no pants.” Or whatever.

    If a horror movie randomly stopped and the MC looked at the camera and said, “hey you, in the couch watching the TV, I AM SCARED RIGHT NOW!” Would that make the movie scarier? Or would you laugh and turn it off? That is the difference I am talking about...

      shadowdrake27 I think it's to make the characters feel more than just 2D characters only capable of speech. Yeah, the reader may know that the character has their own personalities and such but inner thoughts can help reinforce that.

      Just a thought.

      Did you know that whatever you post is considered a thought? (unless you're talking out loud as you write, everything you write down is only your thoughts...)

        Yuyumamoru

        I have no problem with thoughts. Just pointing out something I’ve observed in a a lot of stories that I’m not a huge fan of.

        If the story is told from the perspective of character A, I just think it’s strange when character B’s thoughts are known. The whole story should be the thoughts of character A.

        I do like deep characters, but you can show what a character is thinking via storytelling.

        Tom was afraid.

        This is a thought.

        Tom sat in the corner shaking. When I approached him, he jumped out of his skin.

        This is me telling a story from first person in which it is obvious Tom is afraid. I prefer this approach.

        Pleasedeteme

        Lol! I agree. There is a time and place for everything. It’s not ALWAYS annoying to know a characters thoughts. I wish I was the exodia of writing though!

        I personally like when you know multiple people's perspectives like that, I think the writing style is called third-person omniscient? Where it's written like you're a bit like a god who is aware of more things than the MC. CN novels do a lot of it and it's generally an easy way to show the characters' personality/response etc and I'm especially a fan of when it's done well in humor since it's really good for 'straight man' responses eg:
        “We are in trouble,” Mark thought.
        “We are going to die,” Kyle thought.
        "..." Alyssa looks at the small dog growling at the two cowering boys and wonders if she needs better friends.

        Anyway that's just my opinion lol

          Lilliny

          I agree to both of you. Third person omniscient can work very well, if done intentionally. Third person limited is where you run into issues telling everyone thoughts.

          Perhaps it is worth noting that I have no issues if the perspective changes. For example, if chapter one is from the hero’s perspective while chapter two is the same sequence of events from the villains perspective, that can be very interesting. However, the perspective has to obviously change before you state the villains thoughts, in my opinion.

          Both of these perspectives have issues with fourth wall breaks. It begs the question, “Who is the narrator?” Unless the story is framed, like the princess bride which is actually a story about a grandpa reading to his grandson. Framed stories have an official narrator. Them talking to their audience can be a part of your story.

            shadowdrake27 I think you have them backwards. Third person omniscient is very hard to pull off, and is not done often. You mostly see omniscience written when reading simple children's stories or folk tales.

            shadowdrake27 For example, if chapter one is from the hero’s perspective while chapter two is the same sequence of events from the villains perspective, that can be very interesting. However, the perspective has to obviously change before you state the villains thoughts, in my opinion.

            This is third person limited, not omniscient. You are changing to a different character's viewpoint (at least in this context), not changing perspectives. The narrator does not know all, the reader does.

            Omniscient is when you change viewpoints in between sentences and paragraphs before a scene is resolved. As in, other character's thoughts, feelings, ect are being injected into the scene's prose. Stories like Little Red Riding Hood or Greek myths, are omniscient (mostly). Think of it like this: if one whole scene is written from a single character's subjective experience, and only that character's, that is by definition a limited viewpoint.

            On the flip side, if an entire scene was written where we knew the hearts and minds of all involved, that would be omniscient. The narrator knows all, and the reader does too.

              Lilliny

              I agree. My statement about switching perspectives was meant for third person limited. I’ve heard the term “point of view character” used to describe the one character the narrator is following. The POV character can change, but there is always a character whose perspective you are following in a third person limited.

                Ah this is a very refreshing thread to read! I think that Webnovels style for writing is quite different from normal traditionally and self-published books so one can get a bit disturbed with it.

                Reading about Third Limited and Third Omniscient POV is quite interesting. I used to write in Third Omni...or at least tried to. My friend recommended me to use Third Limited with lesser switching of POVs for better immersion and writing so I understand how jarring it can be to read shifting perspectives. My older books are trash lol.

                I hope you make another thread pointing out stuff like this xD

                Ah this is a very refreshing thread to read! I think that Webnovels style for writing is quite different from normal traditionally and self-published books so one can get a bit disturbed with it.

                Reading about Third Limited and Third Omniscient POV is quite interesting. I used to write in Third Omni...or at least tried to. My friend recommended me to use Third Limited with lesser switching of POVs for better immersion and writing so I understand how jarring it can be to read shifting perspectives. My older books are trash lol.

                I hope you make another thread pointing out stuff like this xD

                  Let me put a few points on this matter.

                  First thing first, third person omniscient... Is very hard to pull off. But why? Because there is no suspense. As the narrator knows everything, unless he hides something from the reader, the reader can't be surprised. And if omniscient narrator hides something from the reader, then what's the point of having this kind of narration in the first place?

                  I would say Third omni limited is what people can really pull off if they want to write a story rather than a recount of the events. Limited by the fact that the narrator can peer into a specific cast all at once, but everything outside of it is a blank card for him. That kind of narration could be used in the stories where the narrator is a character himself, just moving the pieces on the board.

                  Then goes third nonomniscent, or third nonomni as I like to call it.

                  Contrary to what people say, I find this absolute (outside of second-person narration that is simply... weird) toughest nut to crack. You can't even ONCE tell your reader more than your character is supposed to know, while remaining detached from said character. This type of narration seems to be easier, but in my honest opinion, is the hardest to properly pull out.

                  Then comes the first person. The illegitimate bastard of narrations, that most of the people love to hate, but rarely give it a chance. But not only it can be pulled off in a great way, but it also is something that I consider to be the best for new writers. Why?

                  Let me start from the end. Have you guys ever heard about Black Company Chronicles? This set of novels is what I (and many others) consider to be the same for dark fantasy genre what LoTR was for low fantasy. And all of its tomes are written entirely from the perspective of the person who is currently holding the pen for said chronicles. While at first, one might think that its hard to immerse yourself in it, but in fact, when you get used to its quirkiness at first, it flows way better than any other stories, because rather than having this unknown force telling you the story, you feel like you were sitting by the fire in the tavern, drinking on your ale and listening to the recounts of an old veteran.

                  Now, let's properly explain why I consider it to be the best choice for the new writers.

                  And as a disclaimer - YES, I DO REALISE that writing in the first person for the first time feels weird. But people are beings that love to speak about themselves and tell their own stories. That's why, for most of the writers, after writing 1, 2 maybe 4 chapters, all the initial problems with writing in the first person will disappear, showing all the profits one can make:

                  1. Author's own immersion. The problem with other narratives is that you are forced to detach yourself from the story. Just the simple fact that you are referring to your Main Character per "he/she" forces your mind to consider them a separate entity. While the example I brought here is just a silly one, when all sorts of details like that come together, they start to matter.

                  2. Reader's perspective. When reading a story in the third person, it will always be something that will feel foreign. While you identify yourself with the characters you read about, you still always feel like they are different. Just the fact that the narrator uses their names to refers to them is not natural. But in the first person, it's only me. The reader, the author, doesn't matter. When you read a story in the first person, you are looking at it directly through the eyes of the main character, not some ambiguous, undefined being.

                  3. Limitations. When writing in the third person, you often face the problem so common yet so hard to overcome, that any kind of literal advice has 50/50 chance to end up speaking about it. Show not tell. I do not mean to say that in first person you can just tell everything, but when you write the story while immersing yourself in the character you are narrating through, it feels wrong to tell your listeners (to whom you narrate the story in the said tavern as they sip on the beer) that this guy thought something or that lass instantly fell love in you. As you watch the scene with your own eyes, you learn how to pick up on the hints.

                  "I(!!!!!) saw as the eyes of this woman traced every single of my movements. Thinking about this, what else could that mean if not a love at first sight? Or maybe she just gauged the weight of MY pouch from how it hangs from my belt?"

                  While there is quite a lot telling here, as those are your own legitimate thoughts, they are justified. Its the narrator that wonders IF what I observed, means what I think it means.

                  But what is even more important, if you tell the story from the perspective of the character himself, you will never feel like writing about something you don't know. Because:

                  1. Everything that this narration shows, can be a lie.

                  You can be lied to. You can misinterpret something. To put it into an example:

                  "After gulping down the last sip of the ale from my cup, I raised from my chair and moved directly towards the female whose attention was focused on me for the last few minutes. Only when she suddenly looked at me with her lips turning into a thin line and her hand suddenly resting on top of her knife's handle, did I realise that her attention might not come purely from affection."

                  When you write first-person, there is no end to surprises. Readers never know what might come next, but they will be in for a ride, as that's just how life works. And with the conflicts and problems given to the author on the silver platter, all you really need to do is to find a way to make that ride exciting and fulfilling.

                  Sorry for my grammar, too lazy to go through this wall of text with grammarly

                    Lilliny i totally agree with you here
                    And i believe there was a term of second POV which is the condition where narration is interacting with readers
                    I don’t like it, but it exists and some authors just love to use it and it’s not wrong

                      shadowdrake27 i believe the issue here is related to the type of POV selected for the novel
                      If the author selected one type, then he should stick with it
                      This isn’t a god rule, ofc, but exceptions where it worked by combining more than one POV in one novel and do it successfully is rare, or i didn’t hear about many yet.
                      The point is: choose one POV and stick to it to th end of the novel, any mix in POV is a mistake except you are a genius writer or something

                        ranmaro You mean, narration styles. POV means point of view. In third person narration you can have multiple POV's without any problem.

                        MotivatedSloth

                        Awesome post! You make a lot of great points here. I could do another whole thread on “showing not telling.” Stories get really old when it is just a long list of things that happen, in my opinion. Even if it is just a long list of what characters are thinking, that’s boring.

                        First person stories are great. I like any story that follows the perspective of one person because of the suspense. Leading readers and the MC astray creates a wonderful conflict that has to be resolved, leading to a more natural plot. This is what I’m attempting to do with my third person limited stories here: only tell the thoughts of the POV character to build suspense.

                        I will say that I have seen second person work very well to this effect. Stories where the reader is the MC, so “you” are in the story. Authors do have to be careful they do not fall into the many holes that are available here, such as making weak unnamed characters that are forgettable, but second person has the same suspense as first person if done correctly. The best place I have seen this used is on “choose your own path” stories. That is to say, stories where the reader can make choices that affect the story. The ability to control parts of the plot lends itself well to second person. I haven’t tried to use it in any other context.

                          ranmaro

                          Agreed, switching back and forth rarely works. If I ever see it, I chalk it up as a mistake immediately.

                          The perspective (and point of view) can dramatically change how the story is told and viewed. Picking the right perspective for your story is important, but sticking with what you pick is even more important for consistency.

                          Novel Ask