• Diss
  • Reviews Are Totally Meaningless

Inspired by Tomoyuki's Guidelines for Self-Promotion, err, Guidelines to Self-Promotion, I too am going to tilt my lance at a windmill.

The term 'review' means an evaluation of a piece of work. It's supposed to give the reader an idea of what that piece is like, and whether it's good or bad.

This is not what it means here. 99% od the so-called reviews on this site are kiss-ass exchanges between people who should have never showed their work to the public in the first place. Five stars are commonly awarded to total trash. It's as if this site was a clinic and mutual admiration club for people suffering from verbal diarrhea.

I think an overhaul of the whole review system is badly overdue. If any of you has an idea of how it should be done, please post here.

(Hope you're reading, Tomoyuki. THIS is how to write a post that will attract flames, if you're into that kind of thing.)

    Preach

    Honest though, that's why I'm super reluctant to do review swaps even though I want to. I don't count the mega-popular front pagers in this bc that's like unfair exposure and this site does focus on the Chinese translations, een though a good number of them now are just copy cat trash of what got the genre trending in the first place.

    Yes, I want reviews and people to view my work, but I don't want ...I don't want people reading it just bc they want a review back. I want them to actually click on and enjoy what they're reading.

    I also don't want the empty reviews, even if they're high. Or the confused ones bc you're really not interested but hey swap time. Let's not even get started on spam/troll reviews.

    You scratch my back I scratch yours but in the end, it's just us. Unknown and unpopular authors don't have a lot of chance for exposure so I get why the review system is there, it's just flawed and misused in this desperate culture. In my personal expereince, review swaps/panned for reviews are rarely satisfying.

      CCmei I have done a few but not proud of it. Not because I think asking for reviews from fellow writers is unethical but because I know what they are saying means nothing in the end. And that sucks to have 5* from people who have no interest in reading your book otherwise. But if we let the ball rolling in its natural course, it's going to take months or even years to get contracted her in WN. I mean, I saw a 'hardcore' review swapper here that started uploading chapters a month ago and got a WN contract yesterday. (She did manage to put up more than a hundred chapters though, which definitely helped).

      Maybe, that's how the system works here and we have to just take a bitter sip of the reality and find a way to get along with it. Different websites, different approaches, I guess.

        Nah i agree that but i still give buck review for some novel. Well it is for exp and make book better( review). Well dont criticism me bout that much better give good review per day than spam bad review.

          ElsbroSparka

          I think you're wrong. I think that writing a hundred chapters in a single month played the decisive role in that writer's contract, particularly if they were reasonably good. WN editors can read too, you know. And they're smart enough to tell a bullshit review from a genuine one.

          Of course I don't know the novel and author you're talking about, and haven't seen the reviews it got.

          sleep_yturtle

          Uh?

            I'm happy not getting any reviews at all. Every time I see a new review, I get a heart attack because it's inevitably a 1-star reviewing telling me how my story is garbage, how I'm a shitty author, and how they intend to drop the story. To be fair, they are probably correct about me being the worst author on the site, but it gets depressing after the 100th or so comment of "delete your trash story, you miserable piece of shit, you have no right to write here with such awful quality, your mc is retarded, you're an idiot, etc." (take your pick)

            A lot of the reviews are also done to gain experience than to actually fairly evaluate the stories. I don't see what a review with just a word "exp" and emoticons does, really.

            I don't mind criticism. I know I'm the worst author on the site, and I can use every advice I get. But when the advice is "delete your story and gtfo the site" or "quit writing for good" and the criticism is something as vague as "your story is shit, your mc is retarded, you're trash" then I don't know how I'm supposed to improve. Maybe I really should follow their advice, delete my stories and leave the site because quite clearly it is impossible for me to get better. I'll always be trash, no matter how much I do my best to write.

              Tomoyuki
              Oh my god, that is too harsh. Even if they dont like the story, at least they should respectfully critize.

              Cheer up friend

              Tomoyuki

              Sometimes people do comment improper and insolent ones. But a few do review swap quite honestly as I do. But yes again one should provide a constructive criticism not just rash comments.

              If it happens, it's because reviews are treated by WN as a venue to rank and exposure. Once it doesn't matter how many reviews you got to get exposure, it (hopefully) will change.
              Now, my experience on it:
              I don't mind, and I do, swap reviews. If you saw my work, and wish me to see yours, I'm truly ok with it. Are you okay with my honest review? Hopefully, because it's what you will get.
              Now... Why would someone rate someone's else work as a total piece of crap?
              Look: this heroic person DID write something. This person got the nerve to sit down, and write, 5k, 10k, 100k of something he/she think it's good enough for other people to see.
              Is it not perfect? Is it not to your liking? I don't know... Give it 1 star for the nerve; 1 star for the time; 1 star for dreaming high.
              Give them some constructive criticism ('hey guy/girl, this story is a bit cliché/gotta find an editor', etc). When this person is writing 100k of words, he/she is learning how to write better. So let them be.
              Or... Just leave it alone. Let it be. Go find something else to praise.
              I'll review it this way, and keep reading (and keep commenting) the ones that interest me.
              I found excellent authors and novels this way.

              To be honest, this topic is not about anything. Since any site lives due to high ratings, as I have already been explained more than once or twice by enlightened "gurus". Therefore, objectivity and the understanding of the “review” that literary people mean, it does not work on the Internet! Since there are other rules of the game.

              Swap review? They are not a panacea either. There are "principled people" who are ready to receive a review, but are not ready to return it. Do not flatter yourself, swap reviews work at 40 and 60 percent, completely disregarding the "generally accepted rules" - "you will bring me an apple, and I will give you an orange." Since this is the Internet, then no "good manners" rules work here. If a person himself is “honest”, then he will answer, and if “No”, then he will ignore it.

              Swap review? This is more of a promotion than a real estimate. And who of the reviewers reads short stories? For the most part, such reviewers either read nothing at all, or read the first 1-2 chapters, or simply look at the reviews of previous authors, go to the last chapter and write an essay on a free topic for 2-3 sentences. Those who actually read short stories, all chapters, or at least 20-30 percent of them, are units.

              Those who advise how to correct the text, there are even fewer of them, and sometimes their advice is not sincere, but simply a withdrawal in the other direction. You forget that the authors write this review ... that is, potential competitors. Altruists are few.

              An objective assessment does not have to wait?! So do not be too naive. Our novels are a test of the pen, the teaching of how to write 1,000,000 words a year. Training of self-awareness, endurance and willpower, to be able to write 3-4 chapters of 1000-2500 words each week. No more. This has already been said in the "Tutorial for Beginner Writers" - https://www.webnovel.com/book/10589139205070105/Book-of-Autnors

              So there is no particular reason IMHO to write angry messages. Everyone will do as he sees fit. That is, do your PR. While it is not prohibited by the rules of the site, it is considered a working option for promotion.

              Another thing is that you need to measure (but it depends on the level of culture and the worldview of a person, some believe that you need to know the measure. And some do not).

              In order to get into the rating you need 10 reviews. Sometimes these are the same type of words, symbols, emoji from the same account, 10 of the same type of review. And this also works for promotion. But it looks strange to say the least. There are generally short stories with one duplicate sentence of 100,000 or even 400,000 words. All people are different, as are their tastes.

              Something like this. Many letters turned out. This is my subjective opinion.

              Perhaps I am one of the few altruists here, as @Gourmet_DAO calls them. I rarely write reviews. Often you just know you enjoyed a story. But to actually explain why? Too much effort and time! This is something I take seriously, and not for 5 XP!

              But I give reviews once in a while. A few times because there was an appeal for feedback. I'm not an author (though I write IRL), so it's never a review swap but an honest evauation from a reader. I choose only books that are worth my time. You can always tell, from how the synopsis is written. Proud to say, three of my reviews have been pinned so far, despite a few (constructive) criticisms.

              Don't lose heart @Tomoyuki . I don't believe you are as bad as they say you are. Those aren't expert opinions anyway. To quote artist Yulia Brodskaya, "You need to keep doing what you believe in and keep pushing throughh all the self-doubt. Sooner or later the door will open." Why don't you give us the link to your book?

              ElsbroSparka Same here, bc I have done the same. I wanted more people to possibly see my work,

              "let's start with exposure first! We'll go from there. Other people do it so should i!" and I don't think it's shameful to do as it as desperate, bc that's what we writers on the internet have to do the survive. We're all just doing our best.

              I have to admit though that this site counts more by numbers than anything. That's why they stressed so much effort on stats page. Someone said the editors here do read but WN has shown repeatedly how understaffed or lax about rules/issues they are. It's okay if the novel is trash as long as it's popular and stable trash- then it is profitable.

              It's not a diss bc I and many people enjoy certain flavors of trash, that's why we're on here and other such sites. It's like eating chips, sometimes you want cheap addictive quantity of a certain flavor over something quality.

                Mixing reviews and ratings was a bad idea from the start. Making it a daily quest for XP just added insult to injury. Plus a horde of other insanities on top of that and, yeah, the system is quite broken.

                Still, there are a few who write reviews. Sure a few of them mix up the critique with the review, but I guess that's something someone like me would take note of. A master in comparative literature gave me a tendency to be quite anal when it comes to sematic precision. That's a kinder way of saying that I'm a pedantic arse.

                Anyway, that also makes me write reviews I'm happy with. They're short since reviews on this site tend to be short, but I don't feel ashamed of them. A few of them are really critiques rather than reviews; a result of the author asking for input in order to improve rather than the reader assessment that a review really is.

                The thumbs up system alleviates the review problem somewhat. High quality reviews slowly bubble to the top.

                The thumbs up system doesn't really alleviate the problem in my case. It actually exacerbates it.

                Now Xiao Huo Yan is a great guy. I like him, and he's really nice. And he's a top writer with a super popular and well-written story called I Shall Rule the Heavens (go read it and support him, it's ranked among the top and is among the best, definitely several thousand times better than mine). He has a dedicated fanbase, an especially loyal core who absolutely loves his work and rightly so.

                Unfortunately, I don't know how or why, these guys managed to find my story (probably because our titles are similar). They hate it, and give it low reviews - several of them actually spam their low reviews saying the exact same thing over and over again. "I don't like this story - 1 star." "I still don't like this story - 1 star." "Author is trash - 1 star." The first time, I'm like, okay, yeah, you don't like it, fine. Second time, I'm like, "why are you still reading this story?" And then the following times I start suspecting that something is wrong and start deleting them (I'll admit, that's unfair of me and too much of a kneejerk reaction). And because they are all Xiao Huo Yan's fans, they all help and support each other by coming onto my story to upvote all the low reviews to the top. For example, a review that merely says "Not really my cup of tea" and one star gets 8 upvotes. Another that simply says, "Sorry, but I don't like it and I don't like the plot." also gets 8 upvotes. Not because they are high quality reviews, but they are all Xiao Huo Yan's fans upvoting each other's reviews. Funnily enough, Xiao Huo Yan also left a review on my story, and all his fans upvoted it even though it gave 5 stars, all because he was the one who wrote the review. Point is that, fans of other writers band together. Some of my friends warn me that it's also because they're trying to downvote my story and suppress it so that Xiao Huo Yan's story can be more popular. I'll give his fans the benefit of the doubt because I am aware that my writing is horrible and deserves to be hated. Maybe it's just a coincidence. I don't know. But even if it's true, I'm fine with it.

                I don't care about rankings, and I highly respect and admire Xiao Huo Yan, so if he can get a higher rank at my expense, I don't care. His fans can come and review-bomb me with 1 star reviews. After deleting a few of those spam reviews the first time, I stopped caring and stopped deleting them because people on this forum accused me of being unethical and biased, and only keeping high-score reviews (never mind that I also deleted all the 5 star reviews that had nothing but emoticons and didn't say anything about my story). Also, some of his fans accused me of plagiarizing and copying his story and demanded that I delete mine and take it down. I'm seriously considering it because I'm tired of dealing with all the hassle and trouble.

                However, if you want to claim that the upvote thing alleviates the problem of biasness or allow high-quality reviews to stand out, then I'll tell you that has not been my experience. In my experience, the upvoting system is open to abuse. I'm happy to let Xiao Huo Yan be ranked above me because he deserves it in all honesty (so now I just leave all the reviews on, even the spammy hateful, abusive ones calling my story trash or the author - me - an idiot), but I can easily see this happening to other writers, where fans of a popular writer go around review-bombing other people with one-star reviews and help each other upvote those reviews to the top in order to downvote and lower those stories' rankings so that their favorite writer gets on top.

                Don't go hunting Xiao Huo Yan now or review-bombing him. Give him the credit he deserves and rate his story 5 stars (his fans accept nothing less - any review below 5 stars will probably receive a lot of "comments" from them). Or I'll go defend him because he doesn't deserve any hatred. I am also 100% confident he has nothing to do with his fans' behavior and that he didn't tell them to go around bombing other writers. Writers shouldn't be responsible for their fans' behavior at any rate. Not that they are misbehaving. I'm sure they're just expressing their honest opinion, though I'm baffled why a whole group of them just decided to suddenly come over and read my stuff when it has nothing to do with Xiao Huo Yan's, or when it's clearly inferior to his story in every conceivable way possible. They're probably M.

                By the way, this is also another example why reviews are totally meaningless. They are being used as a tool or weapon to attack other authors so that you can "support" your favorite author.

                  Tomoyuki

                  Hmm. Then you have a different experience from the 'thumbs up' -system compared to the one I have. I have to respect that since experienced information is individual.

                  Anyway, 'alleviates' isn't good enough in any case. I have no idea how a moron even came up with the idea to allow people to give multiple reviews to one story. Or to implement a user-level system and then not use it for vetting-purposes in order to get rid of voting bots.

                    StenDuring Yeah, I made sure to qualify it as my personal experience and not generalize it. I'm aware that everyone else will have different experiences of it or use it differently.

                    I believe I might be the exception rather than the rule. It is also possible that, because so many people agree with the negative reviews, that I really am a terrible author writing an awful story, and thus deserve the one-star reviews telling me they don't like the story. Actually, I'm working under that assumption right now, because I don't see any alternatives other than to accuse people of non-existent conspiracies and back-stabbing, and I have faith that those readers/Xiao Huo Yan's fans aren't malicious.

                      Tomoyuki

                      I've had my fair share of idiots rating my writing. Not so much on this site. But, you know, on sites where you get sensible reader statistics there's something seriously wrong with a one minute reader-time increase on book number five (zero on book one through four) followed by one or more minimum ratings.

                      I had the admins remove those ratings and, when possible, removing the offending accounts. It's a pity we don't have active admins here though.

                      The slowly bubbling up of quality reviews on this site that I experience is more a matter of checking the reviews on the stories I read rather than the reviews on the stories I write. There's basically too little activity on my own stories to be useful as any meaningful statistical data :D

                      In the end any truly meaningful review system needs to be separated from ratings. Such reviews need to be associated with an internal rating themselves and given a separate section where you can search for stories based on the popularity/rating/time-stamp/whatever on the reviews themselves. Associate reviews with review-authors and you'd pretty soon end up with a tiered system of reviewers; much like you have popular authors today you'd have trusted reviewers as well.

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