Acutelittletrap If you did not mean that writers should not earn money, then I apologize. For some reason you came across as saying, "writers should not make money at all if they did not proofread/edited/checked for plot holes or published their first or second draft of an unfinished novel."

Obviously, if you only meant that they should not get results if they don't put in the work, then I agree. But that wasn't very clear because you were the one who brought up the comparisons between professional and amateur writers in the first place, which made it look like you are implying that amateur writers should not expect to earn any income at all until they become professional.

Also, when you talk about professional basketballers or NBA, and comparing them to a teenager who started playing basketball...well, we have something called sports scholarships. If you perform well in school and work hard in training (just like how you get popular with your daily updates, getting lots of votes and readers online on Webnovel), the school grants you scholarships. Companies sponsor your training. You receive a stipend (and are bonded to the company, which is basically the same as a contract). You still participate in regional school tournaments. So yes, even if you are a teenager who plays basketball at the "amateur" level, you can expect to get some income. That is not being entitled. The sponsors chose to invest in you because they see a bright future. Similarly, Webnovel chooses to give contracts to writers they deem promising because they update regularly and have managed to successfully built up a fanbase, which proves that they are doing something right in their writing.

So I don't even know what exactly is the point you're trying to make, or who you are calling entitled. The contracted writers? Or writers who don't have a contract but demand that they be given one and that they deserve to be paid even though they haven't built up the necessary fanbase to prove that they can succeed in writing? If it's the latter, then your point is redundant, because their stories are free, do not require free pass to read, which is what the thread is about. And I have not seen any non-contracted writers coming on here and demanding a contract, and that has absolutely nothing to do with Webnovel being "exploitative" as LilyK claimed (and which Cantiara responded to, and you responded to her).

      Tomoyuki

      If you're talking about, college-level sports, well I can understand the thought, but I don't agree it's a valid comparison, in fact, I suspect college-level players are vastly underpaid. Often they give up money, to have a chance at the NFL/NBA, basketball players are currently starting to play oversea's to earn money as well. There has been a good amount of discussion on the topic, but many different viewpoints which seem interesting conflict with each other.

      Overall, whichever stance you have on it, It's just too complex to compare to a WN contract, in my viewpoint. I don't agree that WN has too much of a standard when it comes to giving contracts, which is why most of them don't earn much money past the minimum, and I don't think it's only because of pirating, though it is a huge factor on web novel.

      I never brought up the charging system or talked about, because I really don't understand it, but any and all free content in whatever amounts is a blessing for the end-user. (I did recommend the subscription system, long ago.) I'm talking about authors who think they earned money simply by writing when that's not the truth of the matter. Their many books, that have been written and have not earned a dime because the work has not been marketed, or simply is not up to standard, or its intent is not for a mass readership.

      As far as sample size, I think WN, is very liberal though they are cutting back on that ideal.

          Cantiara

          Tomoyuki
          I was around when this happened. I'm more or less as aware as you unless you have some secret connections. Even then, I've seen some of the lies Qidian told over the years, so I would doubt a source from them. I read the official statement from Ren regarding the matter back around when the book went on Amazon. So, I'm not wrong. But it's his word against theirs unless they both openly display the contract. I'll take his word since I know Qidian/Webnovel have a history or dishonesty. With that aside, Coiling Dragon is not the only novel Qidian is pirating here. I've seen more than a couple authors over the years trying to get their novels taken down from here and Qidian ignored them. Prime example. https://www.webnovel.com/book/15524618305756805/The-Forgotten-Conqueror.
          The author of this novel requested this be pulled down a while back, but it's still there. If memory serves, he refused to post it on here because he won't accept their terms. It was one of my favorite novels on Royalroad. Unfortunately, his releases are sporadic, but I think it's worth the wait.
          As a side note. Of the other two stories shared by that same author, one of them is an mtl of a Japanese novel. A quick search gave me nothing on the third one though.

          Tomoyuki Ah I see. I was referring to releasing them in English. When I spoke of the cost for releasing physical versions of Chinese novels, I was referring to the added cost of translating and editing them. Especially since the price of the original Chinese version in paperback appears to be $15...

                  MotivatedSloth I never expected a serious response from you. That would require logic and knowledge about the subject rather than your constant pissy rants that have almost no substance and are spread over the forum whining about how everyone who doesn't agree with you is a selfish entitled leech.

                  You should chant the line about being delusional and having a fragile ego back to yourself, kiddo.

                  There have been far more than 3 over the years, and they all lead to the same point. The price for the chapters is ridiculous. The standard argument against this statement has always been "But the authors and Webnovel need to make money!"
                  But at the end of the day, you're right about one thing. In the Original novels, it comes down to supporting the author. And if people are willing to pay, then the price is fair to them. However, with so many authors commenting on how they aren't making anything and the fact that Webnovel continually changes the system speaks for itself. Webnovel is either not making enough, or they are too greedy and just constantly looking for more ways to squeeze every single penny out of the few people who do pay. Personally, I lean towards the first option, but the second one is certainly possible. They are quite greedy.
                  The translated novels are a completely different story though.

                  First off, I said IF you feel exploited. And if you feel exploited, then I still stand by what I said. It's not the readers who are exploiting you. If someone is here complaining, that means they are following the rules, they just don't like them. People who are reading your stuff for free don't need to come here and complain about it.
                  Second.Pirates huh, like Webnovel? Who have many people's stolen work posted here. You support this site even though they are pirating, yet you want to complain about other sites that pirate. But I'm the one that's completely wrong. Interesting concept you have there.

                      lozlo I honestly don't know the truth, just what I was told, so I will not argue with you on the whole Wuxiaworld thing because I really don't have the right or knowledge to comment on the matter (I trust Cantiara, though).

                      Yeah, each individual volume of coiling Dragon is pretty expensive, and that's before you factor in translation or whatever. The Chinese copy itself is expensive, and compared to it, it seems that each individual Webnovel is cheaper? For $15, you can buy 120 chapters, which is equal to 3-4 volumes if we assume that each volume of Coiling Dragon has 30-40 chapters on average. I guess?

                      Also, from who I know, writers have no complaints about their earnings. No one is complaining that they earn too little. From the conversations I've seen, they are upset with the readers coming onto the forums and complaining that they want more free stuff, and they are worried this would reduce their earnings, that's all. Webnovel pays a fair amount, and no one is complaining about their income being too little.

                          lozlo

                          As I said, I'm not going to elaborate further because of the legalities involved and it's really not my place to do so. I understand you won't just take my word for it without me providing any corroborations to back my claim. So, it's fine. But things are really not as black and white as you make it seems.

                              lozlo

                              Seriously, there is no point in replying to you anymore, and it will be the last response from me.

                              You do not bring any valid points. Not even a single one in neither of your responses to me (since I can't be bothered to read any other of your swea,,, writing). The fact that I'm insanelly pissed off at something IRL right now doesn't help in making me benevolent enought to waste my time on someone as disrespectfull and childish as you by writing the full calculations and real arguments I used to make while talking with others.

                              The reason why Webnovel changes the system - look at the stocks. In their entire history, they had like 2-3 months when they operated at profit, that was actually quite marginal to the amount they are losing during the rest of their existance as the company. It's obvoius they are going to look for other ways to improve their income, because if they won't do so, their financial backers will stop funding them, and you will be left with a middle finger shoved in your face instead of so many novels that they are bringing to your life.

                              And webnovel having pirated novels? Point me to one. Compared to other sites, they are at least taking them down if some fcker steals it and upload as his own. And look at the bright side - no one will every make ANY moeny out of pirated novels in here, because you need a contract to do so.

                              And if you are refering to the korean novels, then surprise surprise, THEY WERE FCKING BOUGHT. The license to translate them. Thats why they shut down free translations, because they were doing something ltierally illegal (Yes, I'm looking at you, solo leveling)

                              So please, get off your high horse and shove your opinions back to your arse, as this was their place of orgin and the only place they could gain any sort of recognition.

                              And no, I'm not gonna bother to care about grammar. YOu aint worthy

                                  MotivatedSloth

                                  MotivatedSloth webnovel having pirated novels? Point me to one

                                  lozlo Prime example. https://www.webnovel.com/book/15524618305756805/The-Forgotten-Conqueror.
                                  The author of this novel requested this be pulled down a while back, but it's still there. If memory serves, he refused to post it on here because he won't accept their terms. It was one of my favorite novels on Royalroad. Unfortunately, his releases are sporadic, but I think it's worth the wait.

                                          muzukashi

                                          Has the original author (copyright holder) sent a DMCA notice to dmca@webnovel.com as well as service@webnovel.com?

                                          If he/she hasn't then he/she should do it. They won't take the novel down without any DMCA notice. That's just how the industry works.

                                          His/her DMCA notice should include the following:
                                          - A physical or electronic signature of a person authorized to act on behalf of the work’s owner.
                                          - Identification of the original work(s) that you’re claiming has been infringed upon.
                                          - Identification of the work you’re claiming has infringed upon yours.
                                          - Information on how the hosting provider can contact you, including phone number, address, or email.
                                          - A statement that you do not believe the content is authorized by the copyright owner.
                                          - A statement that the information is accurate to your knowledge under penalty of perjury.

                                          https://www.socialmediaexaminer.com/how-to-submit-dmca-takedown-notice/

                                              Tomoyuki I'm not really trying to argue about it. I've been around and read the statements from both groups when they started. Ren made a post about it way back then, stating they had spoken to them and sent legal documentation on it. But they refused to take it down, just like every other group out there pirating popular novels. And, it's not the only one. I could write a whole paragraph on their dishonest tactics. (I actually did write one... or two... just now, and then deleted them.)

                                              Yeah, the translated PDF version is on Amazon for like $3 a shot though. 30 for the whole series if I understand it correctly. That price would probably increase drastically for a paperback copy. And Coiling Dragon was one of the more acceptable novels. Most of the novels here shouldn't be put into print. Tian Cu Tu Dou is a prime example. I've read enough of his work over the years, but I couldn't stand to read them through to the end. Skipped large portions of some, just to get to the end, and didn't even finish others. And, that was when they were free. But that's me personally. A lot of people loved the novels, so it's anyone's guess unless it's actually released.

                                              Ah well. I guess there were some misunderstandings across the board. I actually don't know what Qidian pays here. It's been a while, and the few authors I've spoken to in the past weren't thrilled about it, but they also weren't popular authors. Maybe things have changed, maybe you're a popular author, maybe it's way past time for me to make some breakfast. Definitely way past time for me to eat some breakfast...

                                                  Cantiara When it comes to the law, few things are ever black and white, and a lot of it isn't logical either. But, I doubt they have a contract granting them rights to his translation. So, as you said, until given some kind of actual proof, I don't see how it isn't black and white. I'm pretty sure I've seen the post in the past where Qidian(Or one of their spokesmen) claimed that having the rights to the original granted them the right to use the legally recognized official translation. If you think that makes logical sense anywhere except in a court, where rhetoric is king, then there's nothing I can say that would get through to you. It seems pretty black and white to me.

                                                      Cantiara

                                                      Cantiara If he/she hasn't then he/she should do it. They won't take the novel down without any DMCA notice. That's just how the industry works.

                                                      https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/1439/forgotten-conqueror/chapter/224627/please-read

                                                      original author put a link of the novel and was contacted by wn content team after he gave proof its been deleted going to this https://www.webnovel.com/book/10835104505183005/Forgotten-Conqueror link leads to a 404 error
                                                      but another plagiariser popped up i posted a comment in his website regarding this hope he will see it

                                                            lozlo

                                                            As I said, it's fine if you think that way. I'm not going to argue with you about this issue because it's really not my place to do so. But there's no need to convince me otherwise either because I know what I know, and seeing that the knowledge that you have on this issue is solely based on the official statements from both sides, then all I can say is, I know that I know about this issue more than you.

                                                            The reason for my initial response to your post is my own inability to put up with the misconception that some (if not most) people seem to have when it comes to this novel. But I was careless. Mea Culpa. I should never have done that knowing it is not my place to say anything regarding this matter, resulting in my inability to provide evidence to support my statement, rendering this discussion totally pointless.

                                                            So, let's just end it here. My apologies, but please don't waste your time and energy to reply to this post because when it comes to this issue, you won't get any response from me anymore.

                                                                Cantiara It's not really an argument, nor is it a misconception, unless someone is willing to produce the contract showing that Qidian was given the rights to the translation. After all these years, it's not impossible that they have one now, since things change.

                                                                Your argument that I can think how I want but you know the truth because you heard stuff you can't mention from a source you can't list is kind of like my little brother, who committed a crime, multiple actually, and got caught, then accepted the plea deal. But he tried to change the story in private and act like he only accepted it because he couldn't fight the system. Some people actually believed him too. What can you say in that situation? Caught dead to rights, even admits it, but people want to believe it's not true.
                                                                The unfortunate part in all of this, in both cases, is that I didn't deem it necessary to copy down the proof, so I can't actually produce it anymore. It's my word that the posts were made against your word that you know unmentionable things.

                                                                    MotivatedSloth That's a rather interesting statement considering the fact that if you'd actually read what I said you wouldn't need to have me point you to a novel that is being pirated on here. Someone else already used my post as a reply to show you though. But yeah, I'm the one with no valid points when you aren't even reading the posts.
                                                                    To top it off, you basically said I'm right about why they change their systems and that it isn't working very well.

                                                                    You're just spouting nonsense to inflate your fragile ego. Get off your high horse and shove your opinions back in your arse, as this was their place of origin and the only place they could gain recognition.
                                                                    And, no worries, I don't need to complain about your grammar, only your source. It's quite smelly. I guess you've grown so accustomed to it that you don't notice the smell though.

                                                                        lozlo As Muzukashi pointed out, this isn't Webnovel pirating, it's some idiot doing it. Webnovel has taken down the first pirated version of Forgotten Conqueror, and ANOTHER plagiarizer popped up to post a new version again.

                                                                        This isn't Webnovel's fault, and I think it's absurd to blame the company for the actions of individuals. I'm certainly not blaming Amazon for plagiarism or stealing my novel, I'm blaming the IP thief (in this case, Jamie Carter) for it.

                                                                        Apparently, it seems that the Chinese version of Battle Through the Heavens, The Great Ruler and Wu Dong Qian Kun sold very well in paperback, by the way. So there is definitely a market for them.

                                                                            It's crazy how some people that have never written anything in their life are able to say confidently that a webnovel should be worth less because it is unprofessional or amateurish.

                                                                            -First: Webnovel is a concept: Writting raw, unedited content. It is litterally as if you're reading the first draft version of a future saga in the become.

                                                                            Do you think JK Rowling first drafts of Harry Potter were better? It is not so sure and even if they were, she wrote less than 500 words a day except for the first book. So quite the slow writer, compared to the 2000 words someone was saying above.

                                                                            How many people though would have been ready to pay tens or hundreds of $ just to have a first draft daily chapter instead of waiting 3 years for a perfectly edited book?
                                                                            Many.

                                                                            Here you're paying for a raw unedited(for those that can't afford it) work. Once it is finished, though, at least you can rework it. Not every author will do it, but i think none of those who don't will tell you that their finished webnovel is perfect and ready for paperback publishing.

                                                                            Second: Paperback publishing give birth to very standardized stories. Not everything can have the chance to be published this way. Some of my favorites novels are flawed Webnovels. I have gladly paid for them.

                                                                            Third: If 100% of the readers paid for their premium chapters instead of going to pirate websites the chapter price would not be so high, since according to Webnovel only 10 to 30% of the readers are ready to support a novel financially. By donations system like Patreon, it is less than 1% if there's nothing appalling (like privilege chapters).

                                                                              Arkinslize Actually, it would be easier for more readers to pay if the prices of chapters are cheaper. I can sympathize with them, and I don't demand that they pay to read my stuff - I encourage them to use free pass, because I'm more invested in seeing people enjoy my stories than I am in making money (I am aware that some of the higher ranked authors have criticized me on this and accused me of lacking ambition). And quite honestly, because I personally enjoy writing as a hobby. If they deem my story not good enough to pay for it, then I don't blame them. As I said, money is not a concern, and if they don't enjoy reading my story, I don't want them to waste their time forcing themselves to read it (it baffles me that people who claim that they hate my story sometimes continue reading it and repeating how much they hate it over and over again - why torture yourself like this?). However, I am not deluded enough to think my story is worth half of what a Black Library novel is priced, because I obviously am not a professional writer, my editing is sloppy (I have no editors at all), my plot is non-existent and I'm pretty much a poor, incompetent and stubborn author if I were to be honest about myself.

                                                                              So I think even 10% of my readers "supporting" me is already a miracle in itself. I also know for sure that more would pay if the prices were cheaper (I think?). Assuming each of my chapters cost 20-24 cents, that's about $6-$7 a month they are paying for 30 chapters, which is about 1/3 of a price of a Black Library novel of similar length. Am I even 1/3 as good as a professional author, though? Definitely not. Also, that's just me alone. What if these readers have other books to read? They surely can't be reading my book alone, right? If they are reading like 8-10 books on the website, that's easily about $30-50 a month, even if you take into account the daily 3 Free Passes a day. Given the target audience, which is teenagers to young adults, there ain't no way they are gonna afford that.

                                                                              So there is definitely a case to be made for bringing down the prices. I know authors earn less from the unlimited reading subscription model, so most of them will protest against that, but I'm probably the only one, or among the minority who is all for it because I don't earn anything to begin with anyway (and unlike what Forsaken would have you believe, I'm not deluded enough to think I deserve or am entitled to some form of payment even when nobody reads my stories).

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