Tomoyuki I laugh at people who throw out excuses about how it's okay for Webnovel to ignore DMCA's, but want to take the moral high ground when another pirating site does it. Note that, ANOTHER pirating site. I view this as a pirating site. They "allow" pirating here until you're caught in a manner where there is no way for them to continue ignoring it. Then they WAIT for an indefinite about of time to act, if they act. But you want me to believe that it's not pirating. It's the users fault. If I made a site and let people pirate the novels from here, but had a DMCA link so you could report it, and waited 9+ months to take things down, then let them repost it a couple days later, if not immediately, would you actually support that? Wouldn't you say I was pirating? If so, then why the hell should I not laugh at the hypocrisy when people support a site that does that while condemning other sites that do it?
If you went to prison as a visitor and were listening to a parent, whose child was in jail for committing a crime, gossiping about someone else's child who had committed the exact same crime on a larger scale, would you not see the irony and hypocrisy? I certainly would. And I wouldn't think their child was a good kid just because they committed the crime on a smaller scale.

I don't support Webnovel or the other sites that pirate. I can see why you might feel that I'm supporting them, but I don't support either. If this wasn't a site created and run by dishonest people, we'd be having a completely different conversation. In your eyes, telling the truth about Webnovel means I support the other pirates. But in my eyes, telling you the truth about Webnovel is pointing out the flaws to see if they, or others, will even THINK about it. Or if they will just toss out excuses about why it's different when they are the ones pirating.

As for Amazon, I don't use them, so I don't know the particulars for what happens when there is an issue of theft there. And I would think they do some level of validation on things with copyrights, even if it's a fairly low level, but maybe they don't.

The beer or liquor example is about two things that are roughly the same but look different. Some people like to argue about which one is better or worse than the other for lots of different reasons. To me, they are the same.

      lozlo But nobody is making excuses that it's okay for Webnovel to ignore DMCA? Who ever said that? Cantiara did not, she merely mentioned that the legal process was more complicated than you made it out to be, and that it wasn't a simple "Webnovel stole the translations!" thing. That in no way meant "it's all right for Webnovel to ignore DCMA!"

      And if you're referring to MotivatedSloth, he never said it's all right for Webnovel to ignore DMCA either. He's expressing his annoyance at people who go to pirate sites and read his work for free - work that he put hours of effort into working, and him being in serious need of cash, he relies on his writing to make a living (that might not be a good idea, but it is what it is). Of course he would be furious when people advocate going to pirate sites to read his work just because "Webnovel is unaffordable or too expensive!" If you can't afford it, then don't read. it doesn't justify you running off to steal his work and benefiting from the entertainment he provides while giving him nothing in return. Take note, he will not complain if you decides that his work isn't worth the money, or if you choose not to pay for it and read it. He is complaining about his work being pirated.

      But nobody has ever said it's all right for Webnovel to ignore DMCA.

      If you made a site, and people pirate the novels from here on your site, and take them down, only for people to repost them a couple of days later, the writers will send you the DMCA and ask you to take it down again. Not blame you. How the f are you responsible for what people post on your site? Obviously writers are going to give you, the site owner, the benefit of the doubt - and take note, legally wise you are not responsible for what people post on your site. Not unless those people are your employees or agents, and unless we can prove that they are working for you, no one can hold you legally responsible for it. Not only is that how the law works, that's also bloody common sense. Not unless you make a claim that you personally run checks (or hire people to do so) on each and every work that people post on your site, or you confess to having hired people to steal works from other sites and post it on your site. If people choose to steal and reupload on your site, then that's on them, not you the site owner. What part of this logic do you not understand? You admit that you don't know the particulars for what happens on Amazon, but you do not seem to deny the validity of my example regarding it.

      Also, I don't get your prison and parent example, because it makes no bloody sense. Again, the writers here on Webnovel are NOT Webnovel. The original authors on this site are genuine writers who do not pirate. What you are essentially doing is generalizing and judging all authors on Webnovel, regardless of what they write, as pirates. Like how did you come to that conclusion? Because a few bad eggs did it, then all writers on Webnovel - by virtue of their association - are automatically pirates, and thus it is hypocritical for us to complain about being plagiarized? Let me use your prison and parent example then - so if I get assaulted by a criminal, I am not allowed to report the criminal to the police because my child has assaulted another victim? By virtue of my child having assaulted others, I should suck it up and let people assault me even though I'm not my child and did not commit the crime my child did? And if I get assaulted, I should suck it up and not complain about it or report it because my child did it? What kind of logic is that?

      So if my child is a murderer, it's all right for someone else's child to murder me and I have no right to protest against that at all? Because that is exactly what you're saying here.

      I don't even know what the whole beer or liquor thing is or what it has to do with anything. What's better than what? What's the same as what but look different? What are you even trying to prove with this analogy?

          Tomoyuki To sum up my view, which you call misguided, in a simple manner.

          If someone steals from a thief, I have no pity for the thief. I also have no animosity towards the new thief, nor any good feelings towards either.
          Well, in general anyway. If you steal back something that was stolen from you, are you a thief? I'm not sure where to fall on that one.

          If someone defends a thief, then complains about another thief, I think it's funny.
          It's somewhat more complicated than that, but that's the general idea. Going to a thief's house to complain about another thief is close enough to the same for me.

              lozlo Again, you are misguided because you are once again equating writers as Webnovel.

              Writers =/= Webnovel. Not unless you can prove that the person who reuploaded Forgotten Conqueror or whatever pirated stories you claim are agents or staff of Webnovel. By your logic, Amazon and Ebay are thieves by virtue of people posting stolen goods there to sell. NO, THEY ARE NOT.

              Most of the writers on Webnovel are not pirates, yet you are lumping them all together, treating them as pirates and condemning them for their hypocrisy even though the majority of them do not plagiarize or pirate stories and then claim credit for them. Webnovel is not the writer or uploader, yet you seem to conflate the two and treat the pirates who choose to upload plagiarized stories as agents of Webnovel, as if Webnovel actively and consciously recognizes these people as part of their staff and encourage them to do so. If you really believe that, then you're deluded.

                  Tomoyuki If a child is a murderer, and the parent defends them, claiming what he did is not wrong or somehow okay because they managed to skirt some aspect of the law, then yes, in my eyes, they lose the right to complain if someone murders them. You can't support a murderer you like and condemn a murderer that you don't like. Well, I guess you can, but yeah.

                      lozlo But no one is defending Webnovel pirating anything?! Why are you making things up and putting words in people's mouths?

                      Again, who said that it was all right for Webnovel to pirate? Who said that it was all right for them to ignore DMCA? Can you please quote? Otherwise it just seems that you're straight-out lying to prove a point, and it makes me doubt your claims regarding Wuxia World or whatever translation groups having their stuff stolen even more.

                          Tomoyuki Have you already forgotten all the excuses you tossed out about how Webnovel isn't legally responsible for anything that happens here? It's the users, not Webnovel. Webnovel is innocent because they've managed to skirt the law in regards to that.

                          You didn't say the DMCA issue is okay, but you still want to argue that hosting the story for probably more than a year after receiving it is not pirating. Otherwise, we wouldn't still be on the subject of whether or not Webnovel has pirated novels here.

                              lozlo The law states that Webnovel isn't legally responsible for what people post on the site. It is what it is. IT'S THE LAW. Unless you're a lawyer and can argue otherwise? Why do you think nobody has sued Amazon for the plagiarized stories? Because legally wise Amazon is not responsible for what people self-publish on the website. Why do you think Ebay never gets sued for selling stolen goods? Because they are not legally responsible for investigating whether or not the sellers own the goods or not (and how do you even do that?!)! Again, UNLESS YOU HAVE EVIDENCE THAT THE PEOPLE REPOSTING THE STORY ARE AGENTS OR EMPLOYEES OF WEBNOVEL AND ARE EXPLICITLY REPOSTING THEM UNDER ORDERS OF WEBNOVEL, YOU DO NOT HAVE A LEGAL CASE TO MAKE AGAINST THEM. How many times must I repeat this before it finally gets through your head? Or are you making stuff up or lying about how the law works now?

                              If your work has been plagiarized, you send a DMCA requesting that the site takes it down. It doesn't hold the site responsible for plagiarizing - if you notice the wording, the culprit is the person who does the actual plagiarism, not the website itself. If you want to sue somebody, you sue the culprit, not the website, because the website is not legally responsible for plagiarism. Just like Amazon. Just like Ebay. Or do you still not understand how the law works?

                              I never argued that hosting the story for more than a year wasn't pirating. However, I'm beginning to doubt that happened because you've been doing nothing but lying and making stuff up, so sorry if I don't believe you on that. Rather, I do know a few stories, such as Batotit's Another Isekai Story (an author on Royal Road, and he actually posted on here) being removed a few days after he sent the DMCA. And you admitted yourself that they took down Forgotten Conqueror, which meant they did listen and they did comply, but as I said, given all the lies you are fabricating, I suspect you were exaggerating, especially since Batotit, and several other Royal Road authors I know had their stories taken down several days after they sent the DMCA. (By the way, someone also plagiarized and sold Forgotten Conqueror as an ebook on Amazon as well - see here: https://www.royalroad.com/forums/thread/104337?page=1#pid860044 , but funnily enough you're not holding Amazon responsible - another evidence of your agenda)

                              And unlike you, I have some evidence. Here's the thread: https://forum.webnovel.com/d/31020-how-long-does-qidian-respond-to-a-dmca-request/7

                                  Tomoyuki Thanks for proving my point. Exactly as I said, claiming the murderer is innocent because they skirted some aspect of the law. Since I can't legally prove he murdered them for whatever reason, lets say for example, the fact that the video of the crime is inadmissible because of some technicality, even though it's proven to be accurate. So, they change the jury and have to redo the trial with people who don't know about it and let the murderer get away. In your eyes, that's perfectly fine. In mine, it is not. You'd support the murderer according to what you've said.

                                      lozlo Are you an idiot? Or are you trolling? Because I seriously can't believe anyone can be this stupid, or his logic being this twisted.

                                      WEBNOVEL IS NOT THE THIEF. THE POSTER IS.

                                      If I murder somebody, I AM THE MURDERER. Not my parents. Not the company I work for. Not Youtube where I post the video of me murdering someone. Not the hotel that I chose as my venue of murder.

                                      Your logic: If I murder someone at Carlton's Hotel, Carlton Hotel is the murderer. Because they allowed me to murder someone on their premise. If someone else committed a murder at Carlton Hotel again, then Carlton Hotel should be held responsible for the murder. Not for not beefing up security (which is a fair point), but they should be charged for murder (WTF?!).

                                      If you cannot see how f-ed up your logic is, then I have nothing more to say. You can continue with your stupidity, I'm not going to waste any more time on you.

                                          lozlo Also, you did not deny that you were lying. So I assume that you are. Which is another reason I don't intend to waste any more time on this farcas.

                                          As I said, I have posted evidence that Royal Road authors have had their plagiarized stories successfully taken down within days of sending the DCMA (you probably missed it because I had to go back and edit the post to include the link). You have not one shred of proof, other than your word and memory. I'd take CKtalon, Batotit and other Royal Road authors' words over yours.

                                          Also, you said nothing about Amazon, so it's clear that you hold some sort of agenda or bias.

                                              Not to mention anyone that defends or gives any benefit of the doubt to Tomoyuki being a murderer, also, in lozlo's eyes, could be murdered as well with no sympathy from him.

                                                Tomoyuki If Carlton's Hotel gives people weapons and lets them go around murdering people so long as they don't get caught, then yes, then they are an accomplice and could face roughly the same charges as the murderer. Whether they face legal action or not is another story. A murderer is a murderer regardless of whether they are caught. Being caught just dictates their punishment. Being an accomplice is the same. In those same words, pirating is pirating regardless of whether you're legally caught. Being legally caught just means you will face punishment. And if we go by your logic, .co isn't pirating because they haven't been legally brought up on charges yet. Maybe they are just waiting a really long time to react to the DMCA, like Webnovel has done to some authors.

                                                Also, I can post the link to the post about the person who waited 9+ months after his DMCA. He use to do Arifureta a long time ago, but his site has a mixture of things now, a lot of which is adult oriented, and it's a long rant that talk about a lot more than just the 9 month issue.

                                                    lozlo

                                                    lozlo If Carlton's Hotel gives people weapons and lets them go around murdering people so long as they don't get caught

                                                    But they didn't. And if they did, you can trace the weapons back to them and they will get caught. And they can be persecuted according to the law. But they are being charged for being an accomplice for murder and providing the weapons, not because they provided the venue for which the murder takes place in. TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

                                                    Does Webnovel actively hire people to go steal stories from other websites and post them here? Because that's exactly what you're claiming, and honestly, you sound like you're making things up at this point.

                                                    Also, I don't get the Arifureta connection - that sounds like he was translating it (no objections to that), but he obviously does not have the rights over that, so how can he even claim a DCMA for it? And if you're talking about the guy who went off on an anti-Webnovel rant (why Webnovel sucks or something like that was the title), I've read it, and there were a lot of suspicious things about it that made me believe he was either exaggerating or twisting things in his favor in a one-sided manner, which made me doubt his words. I don't pretend that Webnovel is innocent, but I know for sure their staff and employees don't go around stealing stories from Royal Road or other websites and posting them under fake accounts like you are accusing them of.

                                                          Tomoyuki I didn't bother with the part where you said I've been doing nothing but lying because you didn't actually say what it is I'm lying about. Am I supposed to guess? Sorry, not going to guess what part of what I said you think is a lie. I basically just took it as you lashing out because you had nothing else to throw at me.

                                                          As for the Amazon thing, I'm sure they did more than just take the novel down. If they didn't, then there probably would have been people suing, even if it would be a hard or impossible case to win. People will sue for anything if they can find the grounds for it.
                                                          As for Ebay, they never actually possess the product, so it makes it nearly impossible for them to do any kind of verification. Not to mention, how would they even begin to verify if a bike someone is selling was stolen? And, if your bike was stolen, how would you even begin to figure out which one on Ebay was yours? It's quite possible that none of them would be.
                                                          If they did have the product, like a normal pawn shop, then if something was proven to be stolen they would have to give it back and they would lose out on the money they paid the thief for it.
                                                          In the case of online stories though, it's quite easy to at least do a simple check when someone wants to add a new story. It's seriously not hard at all. And, yes, I think it's fair to expect Webnovel to do a simple good search. It would probably have have prevented a majority of pirated novels on this site.

                                                          The DMCA was for something else. Arifureta is just what I remember it for because it was a novel I was fond of when I first started reading light novels.

                                                          I wasn't insinuating they hire people to steal stories. I don't know why you would think that, but that's your issue.

                                                              Seriously guys, give it a rest. The talk isn't even related to the topic anymore. No matter how much you argue, there's going to be little points that both of you can pick and choose to convince yourselves of your own point.
                                                              You've made your cases. Whoever that happens to bother reading all of this can judge for themselves who is right. It's pretty clear to me anyways.

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