Cantiara When it comes to the law, few things are ever black and white, and a lot of it isn't logical either. But, I doubt they have a contract granting them rights to his translation. So, as you said, until given some kind of actual proof, I don't see how it isn't black and white. I'm pretty sure I've seen the post in the past where Qidian(Or one of their spokesmen) claimed that having the rights to the original granted them the right to use the legally recognized official translation. If you think that makes logical sense anywhere except in a court, where rhetoric is king, then there's nothing I can say that would get through to you. It seems pretty black and white to me.
Wen novel become difficult to read
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Cantiara If he/she hasn't then he/she should do it. They won't take the novel down without any DMCA notice. That's just how the industry works.
https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/1439/forgotten-conqueror/chapter/224627/please-read
original author put a link of the novel and was contacted by wn content team after he gave proof its been deleted going to this https://www.webnovel.com/book/10835104505183005/Forgotten-Conqueror link leads to a 404 error
but another plagiariser popped up i posted a comment in his website regarding this hope he will see it
As I said, it's fine if you think that way. I'm not going to argue with you about this issue because it's really not my place to do so. But there's no need to convince me otherwise either because I know what I know, and seeing that the knowledge that you have on this issue is solely based on the official statements from both sides, then all I can say is, I know that I know about this issue more than you.
The reason for my initial response to your post is my own inability to put up with the misconception that some (if not most) people seem to have when it comes to this novel. But I was careless. Mea Culpa. I should never have done that knowing it is not my place to say anything regarding this matter, resulting in my inability to provide evidence to support my statement, rendering this discussion totally pointless.
So, let's just end it here. My apologies, but please don't waste your time and energy to reply to this post because when it comes to this issue, you won't get any response from me anymore.
Cantiara It's not really an argument, nor is it a misconception, unless someone is willing to produce the contract showing that Qidian was given the rights to the translation. After all these years, it's not impossible that they have one now, since things change.
Your argument that I can think how I want but you know the truth because you heard stuff you can't mention from a source you can't list is kind of like my little brother, who committed a crime, multiple actually, and got caught, then accepted the plea deal. But he tried to change the story in private and act like he only accepted it because he couldn't fight the system. Some people actually believed him too. What can you say in that situation? Caught dead to rights, even admits it, but people want to believe it's not true.
The unfortunate part in all of this, in both cases, is that I didn't deem it necessary to copy down the proof, so I can't actually produce it anymore. It's my word that the posts were made against your word that you know unmentionable things.
MotivatedSloth That's a rather interesting statement considering the fact that if you'd actually read what I said you wouldn't need to have me point you to a novel that is being pirated on here. Someone else already used my post as a reply to show you though. But yeah, I'm the one with no valid points when you aren't even reading the posts.
To top it off, you basically said I'm right about why they change their systems and that it isn't working very well.
You're just spouting nonsense to inflate your fragile ego. Get off your high horse and shove your opinions back in your arse, as this was their place of origin and the only place they could gain recognition.
And, no worries, I don't need to complain about your grammar, only your source. It's quite smelly. I guess you've grown so accustomed to it that you don't notice the smell though.
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lozlo As Muzukashi pointed out, this isn't Webnovel pirating, it's some idiot doing it. Webnovel has taken down the first pirated version of Forgotten Conqueror, and ANOTHER plagiarizer popped up to post a new version again.
This isn't Webnovel's fault, and I think it's absurd to blame the company for the actions of individuals. I'm certainly not blaming Amazon for plagiarism or stealing my novel, I'm blaming the IP thief (in this case, Jamie Carter) for it.
Apparently, it seems that the Chinese version of Battle Through the Heavens, The Great Ruler and Wu Dong Qian Kun sold very well in paperback, by the way. So there is definitely a market for them.
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It's crazy how some people that have never written anything in their life are able to say confidently that a webnovel should be worth less because it is unprofessional or amateurish.
-First: Webnovel is a concept: Writting raw, unedited content. It is litterally as if you're reading the first draft version of a future saga in the become.
Do you think JK Rowling first drafts of Harry Potter were better? It is not so sure and even if they were, she wrote less than 500 words a day except for the first book. So quite the slow writer, compared to the 2000 words someone was saying above.
How many people though would have been ready to pay tens or hundreds of $ just to have a first draft daily chapter instead of waiting 3 years for a perfectly edited book?
Many.
Here you're paying for a raw unedited(for those that can't afford it) work. Once it is finished, though, at least you can rework it. Not every author will do it, but i think none of those who don't will tell you that their finished webnovel is perfect and ready for paperback publishing.
Second: Paperback publishing give birth to very standardized stories. Not everything can have the chance to be published this way. Some of my favorites novels are flawed Webnovels. I have gladly paid for them.
Third: If 100% of the readers paid for their premium chapters instead of going to pirate websites the chapter price would not be so high, since according to Webnovel only 10 to 30% of the readers are ready to support a novel financially. By donations system like Patreon, it is less than 1% if there's nothing appalling (like privilege chapters).
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Arkinslize Actually, it would be easier for more readers to pay if the prices of chapters are cheaper. I can sympathize with them, and I don't demand that they pay to read my stuff - I encourage them to use free pass, because I'm more invested in seeing people enjoy my stories than I am in making money (I am aware that some of the higher ranked authors have criticized me on this and accused me of lacking ambition). And quite honestly, because I personally enjoy writing as a hobby. If they deem my story not good enough to pay for it, then I don't blame them. As I said, money is not a concern, and if they don't enjoy reading my story, I don't want them to waste their time forcing themselves to read it (it baffles me that people who claim that they hate my story sometimes continue reading it and repeating how much they hate it over and over again - why torture yourself like this?). However, I am not deluded enough to think my story is worth half of what a Black Library novel is priced, because I obviously am not a professional writer, my editing is sloppy (I have no editors at all), my plot is non-existent and I'm pretty much a poor, incompetent and stubborn author if I were to be honest about myself.
So I think even 10% of my readers "supporting" me is already a miracle in itself. I also know for sure that more would pay if the prices were cheaper (I think?). Assuming each of my chapters cost 20-24 cents, that's about $6-$7 a month they are paying for 30 chapters, which is about 1/3 of a price of a Black Library novel of similar length. Am I even 1/3 as good as a professional author, though? Definitely not. Also, that's just me alone. What if these readers have other books to read? They surely can't be reading my book alone, right? If they are reading like 8-10 books on the website, that's easily about $30-50 a month, even if you take into account the daily 3 Free Passes a day. Given the target audience, which is teenagers to young adults, there ain't no way they are gonna afford that.
So there is definitely a case to be made for bringing down the prices. I know authors earn less from the unlimited reading subscription model, so most of them will protest against that, but I'm probably the only one, or among the minority who is all for it because I don't earn anything to begin with anyway (and unlike what Forsaken would have you believe, I'm not deluded enough to think I deserve or am entitled to some form of payment even when nobody reads my stories).
Tomoyuki That type of logic is exactly why I laugh when I see anyone on here complaining about pirating somewhere else.
Even if you don't blame them the first time, they can't escape some responsibility the second time and so on.
Or, do you think it's fine to repost someone else's story repeatedly as long as the link on your website is different? Do you really think saying "It's the fault of the authorized user we allowed to post it!" each time it happens actually resolves them of fault for doing the same thing over and over again? It's not like it's an accident or mistake that has only happened once or twice.
It's actually a fairly simple tactic to force people into putting the story up here, but proving that is their intent is nearly impossible so that can only be said as an opinion at the moment.
But, I dare you to tell me that it's okay to ignore a DMCA for almost a year or more, or to take it down and then relist it here with the same name and a different link while proclaiming "We didn't know, it's the fault of the people who post here."
I can actually provide you with a link for a translator turned author who has a long rant about Qidian that is dated about a year ago, but could be older because of site revamps, with part of it talking about them not taking down his popular story for over 9months after his DMCA. Even after he had enough money to get a lawyer involved, they still hadn't taken it down. It's actually down now, but I'm pretty sure I checked it at the over a year mark and still saw it up. Even if we toss that out, over 9 months. Please, defend that. I want to see it. Give me some of that pirate logic. Explain to me how it's okay for them to let people post pirated work here, ignore DMCA's until the series loses popularity, then maybe take it down, and even allow it to be reposted.
Maybe you think there's a difference. And, I guess in a minor way there is. But that's the same as compairing beer and hard liquor with the belief that beer isn't as bad because the concentration is different. Or arguing that mixed drinks are different because the liquor has been diluted with whatever your non-alcoholic drink of choice is. They still get you drunk. The main difference is which one you prefer.
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lozlo I don't think it's fine, but that's kind of a ridiculous statement to make. Unless there's a Qidian staff member who checks each and every story to make sure it wasn't posted elsewhere (that's one aspect that Royal Road is very good at, and something Webnovel can learn from), there is absolutely nothing they can do about bots or thieves reposting stolen stories.
I don't steal someone's Warhammer 40,000 army, post it on Ebay and sell it to other people, and then blame Ebay for allowing me to sell stolen stuff. That's just freaking ridiculous. Obviously it's the thief who should get punished, not Ebay. And similarly, until they adopt the same anti-plagiarism system that Royal Road has, you can't possibly expect Webnovel to check each and every story for plagiarism (and they get what, a hundred new stories a day?).
When someone stole my story and pirate it on Amazon, I don't blame Amazon. I blame it on the bloody IP thief. If it happens again, I will send Amazon another report and get it taken down again. But I will not blame Amazon and pretend, like you, that it's Amazon's responsibility, and that it's their fault somehow that bots or thieves repeatedly steal my story and sell it on there. What is Amazon supposed to do? Hire private investigators to check through the content of everyone who self-publishes?
And I think you are clearly deluded if you think it's Webnovel who "forces" people to repost the story here, or encourages people to post the story here. You can ask the staff and they probably haven't even heard of Forgotten Conqueror before.
I am not defending Webnovel. I just think you are just...misguided and pointing fingers at the wrong people. In your haste to accuse and demonize Webnovel, you conveniently defend the pirates, the actual culprits who do the stealing. Even if you didn't mean to do that, you're basically implying that it's all right for pirates to plagiarize stories on Webnovel because somehow Webnovel is the greater evil here and also pirates, so we (writers on Webnovel) have no right to criticize or call pirates out because somehow Webnovel encourages piracy (and I don't speak for Webnovel, I speak for my own work).
lozlo That type of logic is exactly why I laugh when I see anyone on here complaining about pirating somewhere else.
I don't get why you laugh at writers who are enraged that their works are plagiarized. Plagiarism and IP theft is illegal, and it sucks no matter who it happens to. Writers are not Webnovel. I do not speak for Webnovel, and I am not Webnovel, so it makes no sense for you to gloat over how I get ripped off and plagiarized just because apparently some idiot plagiarizes a novel on Webnovel. You are basically saying that I have no right to make a report to Amazon, or complain that someone plagiarized my story on Amazon because...some other author (and not me) also did it on Webnovel. As if that absolves the IP thief of any blame altogether and deprives me the right to complain or feel wronged about it. Obviously, I do not endorse or defend the bastards who keep reposting Forgotten Conqueror, but you make it sound like I am the same as them, and therefore not allowed to call anyone else out on plagiarism by virtue of me posting on Webnovel alone.
How does that even make sense?
I also don't understand what the beer or liquor example has to do with anything.
Tomoyuki I laugh at people who throw out excuses about how it's okay for Webnovel to ignore DMCA's, but want to take the moral high ground when another pirating site does it. Note that, ANOTHER pirating site. I view this as a pirating site. They "allow" pirating here until you're caught in a manner where there is no way for them to continue ignoring it. Then they WAIT for an indefinite about of time to act, if they act. But you want me to believe that it's not pirating. It's the users fault. If I made a site and let people pirate the novels from here, but had a DMCA link so you could report it, and waited 9+ months to take things down, then let them repost it a couple days later, if not immediately, would you actually support that? Wouldn't you say I was pirating? If so, then why the hell should I not laugh at the hypocrisy when people support a site that does that while condemning other sites that do it?
If you went to prison as a visitor and were listening to a parent, whose child was in jail for committing a crime, gossiping about someone else's child who had committed the exact same crime on a larger scale, would you not see the irony and hypocrisy? I certainly would. And I wouldn't think their child was a good kid just because they committed the crime on a smaller scale.
I don't support Webnovel or the other sites that pirate. I can see why you might feel that I'm supporting them, but I don't support either. If this wasn't a site created and run by dishonest people, we'd be having a completely different conversation. In your eyes, telling the truth about Webnovel means I support the other pirates. But in my eyes, telling you the truth about Webnovel is pointing out the flaws to see if they, or others, will even THINK about it. Or if they will just toss out excuses about why it's different when they are the ones pirating.
As for Amazon, I don't use them, so I don't know the particulars for what happens when there is an issue of theft there. And I would think they do some level of validation on things with copyrights, even if it's a fairly low level, but maybe they don't.
The beer or liquor example is about two things that are roughly the same but look different. Some people like to argue about which one is better or worse than the other for lots of different reasons. To me, they are the same.
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lozlo But nobody is making excuses that it's okay for Webnovel to ignore DMCA? Who ever said that? Cantiara did not, she merely mentioned that the legal process was more complicated than you made it out to be, and that it wasn't a simple "Webnovel stole the translations!" thing. That in no way meant "it's all right for Webnovel to ignore DCMA!"
And if you're referring to MotivatedSloth, he never said it's all right for Webnovel to ignore DMCA either. He's expressing his annoyance at people who go to pirate sites and read his work for free - work that he put hours of effort into working, and him being in serious need of cash, he relies on his writing to make a living (that might not be a good idea, but it is what it is). Of course he would be furious when people advocate going to pirate sites to read his work just because "Webnovel is unaffordable or too expensive!" If you can't afford it, then don't read. it doesn't justify you running off to steal his work and benefiting from the entertainment he provides while giving him nothing in return. Take note, he will not complain if you decides that his work isn't worth the money, or if you choose not to pay for it and read it. He is complaining about his work being pirated.
But nobody has ever said it's all right for Webnovel to ignore DMCA.
If you made a site, and people pirate the novels from here on your site, and take them down, only for people to repost them a couple of days later, the writers will send you the DMCA and ask you to take it down again. Not blame you. How the f are you responsible for what people post on your site? Obviously writers are going to give you, the site owner, the benefit of the doubt - and take note, legally wise you are not responsible for what people post on your site. Not unless those people are your employees or agents, and unless we can prove that they are working for you, no one can hold you legally responsible for it. Not only is that how the law works, that's also bloody common sense. Not unless you make a claim that you personally run checks (or hire people to do so) on each and every work that people post on your site, or you confess to having hired people to steal works from other sites and post it on your site. If people choose to steal and reupload on your site, then that's on them, not you the site owner. What part of this logic do you not understand? You admit that you don't know the particulars for what happens on Amazon, but you do not seem to deny the validity of my example regarding it.
Also, I don't get your prison and parent example, because it makes no bloody sense. Again, the writers here on Webnovel are NOT Webnovel. The original authors on this site are genuine writers who do not pirate. What you are essentially doing is generalizing and judging all authors on Webnovel, regardless of what they write, as pirates. Like how did you come to that conclusion? Because a few bad eggs did it, then all writers on Webnovel - by virtue of their association - are automatically pirates, and thus it is hypocritical for us to complain about being plagiarized? Let me use your prison and parent example then - so if I get assaulted by a criminal, I am not allowed to report the criminal to the police because my child has assaulted another victim? By virtue of my child having assaulted others, I should suck it up and let people assault me even though I'm not my child and did not commit the crime my child did? And if I get assaulted, I should suck it up and not complain about it or report it because my child did it? What kind of logic is that?
So if my child is a murderer, it's all right for someone else's child to murder me and I have no right to protest against that at all? Because that is exactly what you're saying here.
I don't even know what the whole beer or liquor thing is or what it has to do with anything. What's better than what? What's the same as what but look different? What are you even trying to prove with this analogy?
Tomoyuki To sum up my view, which you call misguided, in a simple manner.
If someone steals from a thief, I have no pity for the thief. I also have no animosity towards the new thief, nor any good feelings towards either.
Well, in general anyway. If you steal back something that was stolen from you, are you a thief? I'm not sure where to fall on that one.
If someone defends a thief, then complains about another thief, I think it's funny.
It's somewhat more complicated than that, but that's the general idea. Going to a thief's house to complain about another thief is close enough to the same for me.
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lozlo Again, you are misguided because you are once again equating writers as Webnovel.
Writers =/= Webnovel. Not unless you can prove that the person who reuploaded Forgotten Conqueror or whatever pirated stories you claim are agents or staff of Webnovel. By your logic, Amazon and Ebay are thieves by virtue of people posting stolen goods there to sell. NO, THEY ARE NOT.
Most of the writers on Webnovel are not pirates, yet you are lumping them all together, treating them as pirates and condemning them for their hypocrisy even though the majority of them do not plagiarize or pirate stories and then claim credit for them. Webnovel is not the writer or uploader, yet you seem to conflate the two and treat the pirates who choose to upload plagiarized stories as agents of Webnovel, as if Webnovel actively and consciously recognizes these people as part of their staff and encourage them to do so. If you really believe that, then you're deluded.
Tomoyuki If a child is a murderer, and the parent defends them, claiming what he did is not wrong or somehow okay because they managed to skirt some aspect of the law, then yes, in my eyes, they lose the right to complain if someone murders them. You can't support a murderer you like and condemn a murderer that you don't like. Well, I guess you can, but yeah.
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lozlo But no one is defending Webnovel pirating anything?! Why are you making things up and putting words in people's mouths?
Again, who said that it was all right for Webnovel to pirate? Who said that it was all right for them to ignore DMCA? Can you please quote? Otherwise it just seems that you're straight-out lying to prove a point, and it makes me doubt your claims regarding Wuxia World or whatever translation groups having their stuff stolen even more.
Tomoyuki Have you already forgotten all the excuses you tossed out about how Webnovel isn't legally responsible for anything that happens here? It's the users, not Webnovel. Webnovel is innocent because they've managed to skirt the law in regards to that.
You didn't say the DMCA issue is okay, but you still want to argue that hosting the story for probably more than a year after receiving it is not pirating. Otherwise, we wouldn't still be on the subject of whether or not Webnovel has pirated novels here.
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lozlo The law states that Webnovel isn't legally responsible for what people post on the site. It is what it is. IT'S THE LAW. Unless you're a lawyer and can argue otherwise? Why do you think nobody has sued Amazon for the plagiarized stories? Because legally wise Amazon is not responsible for what people self-publish on the website. Why do you think Ebay never gets sued for selling stolen goods? Because they are not legally responsible for investigating whether or not the sellers own the goods or not (and how do you even do that?!)! Again, UNLESS YOU HAVE EVIDENCE THAT THE PEOPLE REPOSTING THE STORY ARE AGENTS OR EMPLOYEES OF WEBNOVEL AND ARE EXPLICITLY REPOSTING THEM UNDER ORDERS OF WEBNOVEL, YOU DO NOT HAVE A LEGAL CASE TO MAKE AGAINST THEM. How many times must I repeat this before it finally gets through your head? Or are you making stuff up or lying about how the law works now?
If your work has been plagiarized, you send a DMCA requesting that the site takes it down. It doesn't hold the site responsible for plagiarizing - if you notice the wording, the culprit is the person who does the actual plagiarism, not the website itself. If you want to sue somebody, you sue the culprit, not the website, because the website is not legally responsible for plagiarism. Just like Amazon. Just like Ebay. Or do you still not understand how the law works?
I never argued that hosting the story for more than a year wasn't pirating. However, I'm beginning to doubt that happened because you've been doing nothing but lying and making stuff up, so sorry if I don't believe you on that. Rather, I do know a few stories, such as Batotit's Another Isekai Story (an author on Royal Road, and he actually posted on here) being removed a few days after he sent the DMCA. And you admitted yourself that they took down Forgotten Conqueror, which meant they did listen and they did comply, but as I said, given all the lies you are fabricating, I suspect you were exaggerating, especially since Batotit, and several other Royal Road authors I know had their stories taken down several days after they sent the DMCA. (By the way, someone also plagiarized and sold Forgotten Conqueror as an ebook on Amazon as well - see here: https://www.royalroad.com/forums/thread/104337?page=1#pid860044 , but funnily enough you're not holding Amazon responsible - another evidence of your agenda)
And unlike you, I have some evidence. Here's the thread: https://forum.webnovel.com/d/31020-how-long-does-qidian-respond-to-a-dmca-request/7
Tomoyuki Thanks for proving my point. Exactly as I said, claiming the murderer is innocent because they skirted some aspect of the law. Since I can't legally prove he murdered them for whatever reason, lets say for example, the fact that the video of the crime is inadmissible because of some technicality, even though it's proven to be accurate. So, they change the jury and have to redo the trial with people who don't know about it and let the murderer get away. In your eyes, that's perfectly fine. In mine, it is not. You'd support the murderer according to what you've said.
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lozlo Are you an idiot? Or are you trolling? Because I seriously can't believe anyone can be this stupid, or his logic being this twisted.
WEBNOVEL IS NOT THE THIEF. THE POSTER IS.
If I murder somebody, I AM THE MURDERER. Not my parents. Not the company I work for. Not Youtube where I post the video of me murdering someone. Not the hotel that I chose as my venue of murder.
Your logic: If I murder someone at Carlton's Hotel, Carlton Hotel is the murderer. Because they allowed me to murder someone on their premise. If someone else committed a murder at Carlton Hotel again, then Carlton Hotel should be held responsible for the murder. Not for not beefing up security (which is a fair point), but they should be charged for murder (WTF?!).
If you cannot see how f-ed up your logic is, then I have nothing more to say. You can continue with your stupidity, I'm not going to waste any more time on you.