• Suggestions Diss
  • Flagging/Blacklisting of novels due to usage of emojis/emoticons/kaomoji/symbols

Veronica8 what is the solution then? To not use kaomoji?

Adapt to the platform norms you say, but what are the platform norms? It seems to me that those norms don't exist because different mythical rules are being applied to different people. Some can have their book whitelisted while to others that whitelist doesn't exist.

Expect to go through the process of whitelisting? For every chapter update?? For fixing typos??

"cut them some slack"
You seem to be defending content editors from an attack? Where are they being attacked and from whom? Who is not cutting them some slack or not appreciating them? Am I seeing the same thread as you??

Why are content editors being defended over and over again from a nonexistent attack in a thread about a flagging algorithm? Are you implying that they are at fault for what is happening or that they are doing something wrong here? Because that's the only reason why defending them would make sense in this context.

    I believe the "cutting them some slack" is referring to bothering them every single time the system flags your novel.

    It's not their responsibility to ensure that one's novel won't get blacklisted even though they have the power to fix it. If an author knowingly tries to walk the fine line between triggering a system that can't be changed by CEs, then they shouldn't be expecting their butts to be continuously saved.

    Frankly, I have no clue why there's a system that flags it. Maybe there's a good reason. But you can't expect the CEs to know how to fix something that they aren't personally in charge of.

    So from the way I read Veronica's statement, it means "don't expect a solution that solves all your troubles cause they have limited ability", not that 'there are people attacking CEs'.

      kazesenken Frankly, I have no clue why there's a system that flags it. Maybe there's a good reason.

      Random bots were creating tons of Chinese/Korean/Japanese garbage/advertisement novels that would get into the rankings somehow and push down actual novels. So the people kept complaining and then the devs had a Eureka moment that went like: How 'bout we create a program that blacklists those entire languages and whatever else isn't English?

      And that resulted in the birth of the now-a-menace. It was supposed to help authors and it did, but now it has turned into a problem. And since they have better stuff to do, they obviously never paid attention to it.

      LoweCypher I would bet on the former for conspiracy reasons I rather not start about.

      I would bet on the latter as that's how most of things on Webnovel are being done. The biggest example of them setting up something and then never touching it is this Forum itself.

      Disclaimer: I made up the Eureka moment but I am pretty sure that's how it happened.

        kazesenken "bothering them every single time the system flags your novel"
        Do you think I am bothering them on purpose? What else can you do when your novel gets flagged? Solve it by yourself?

        "It's not their responsibility..."
        Then whose responsibility is it to fix it? Am I supposed to know that? If they tell me to contact A then I'll contact A, if they tell me to contact B I'll contact B. If that is not their responsibility then they should have directed me to someone who is responsible for it. If even they don't know who is supposed to be responsible for then how can I?

        And can it even be that not one of the 8 different webnovel staff I've spoken to knows whose responsibility it is to fix it? (Yes, I've actually stopped to count.)

        That can't be right? For a problem that apparently happens all the time, surely it can't be that no one knows who is supposed to be dealing with it?

        So then, what you are saying here is that not one of the webnovel staff holds the responsibility to fix an error caused by their own system? Then who is responsible for fixing it, God?

        Or, perhaps, are you saying that it isn't an error? That it was their intention all along to cause legit novels to get blocked due to an anti-spam algorithm? Seems kinda counterproductive if you ask me.

        Then, since it is clearly an error and someone should be responsible for it, the responsibility could only fall at the novel's author, right? So then, what you are really saying is that every author is at fault here for not possessing omniscient powers of future prediction? And for even possessing basic reasoning abilities that would dare assume that things that work for other non-premium novels would work for theirs too?

        "knowingly trying to walk a fine line" you say.
        At first, I wasn't even aware there WAS a line. Would you have figured out that there was a line if you clearly saw many other novels using emojis just fine?

        Got blacklisted.
        Then after getting whitelisted, no one mentioned that the novel would get blacklisted again if I continue using emoji, and judging by what everyone was saying on the forums about "once you are whitelisted you can use whatever characters you want", I naturally continued using the emojis.

        Blacklisted again. At that point, I asked, what characters are causing the error? Since I've seen kaomoji being used just fine then there is clearly something I'm doing wrong that others are doing right.

        And all I have gotten back is "we have no idea but we assure you that we do, so just use only characters found on an English keyboard."

        At this point, I was getting genuinely concerned. I can't just use "characters found on an English keyboard" as they put it. What if the next time I copy-paste my text from Microsoft Word there is some kind of character in it that webnovel deems as blacklist-worthy? Am I supposed to remember to check for every mention of fiancé to remove that é that word automatically puts?

        I needed to test this out, but since I couldn't test it out on my actual novel, I had to play it safe. So, I went through another novel that wasn't premium that uses kaomoji without any issue, just so I can check what characters actually work. Then I thought, oh, so it must be just emojis like this that don't work: 😒 because that novel was using all kinds of kaomoji just fine.

        So I removed everything that I didn't confirm that novel using with my own two eyes. And what happened? That's right, I still got blacklisted.

        At this point, I was sick and tired of it all. I went through my every chapter and removed every single character that "wasn't found on the English keyboard".

        Still got blacklisted. Why? Because I missed one! I missed one single 🤔

        So, right, yeah, I deserved everything I got because I "knowingly tried to walk the fine line" and damn, those poor, poor webnovel workers that had to whitelist me four times due to the oh so clearly explained problem in the system.

        Frankly, if even one person straight up went and told me "look, we can unblock you now, but that's only temporary, the next time you use something that the system doesn't like, you'll get flagged again. What is it that system doesn't like? I don't know, I'll ask the tech deparment. But in the meanwhile, using just the things found on a normal english keyboard should work? Why can others use it? I don't know, let me check and I'll get back at you." (and then ofc, got back to me)
        I would have been perfectly satisfied. But not a single one did that. Not a single one out of 8.

        There were some that were nice about it, and even said that they aren't familiar with the procedure and directed me elsewhere, but then there were others that treated me like I owe them money, pretending to be an authoritative figure whose words are law while clearly contradicting themselves every other sentence.

        And then, after the entire fiasco, I come to the forums to post a suggestion to do something about this algorithm, which would clearly be beneficial for all parties involved, and the response? Poor content editors.

        Yeah, you are right. Thank you. Can you now direct even half of that empathy to other people involved as well? Or maybe, I don't know, concentrate on the core issues of the discussion which is a problem with the system so that perhaps someone might fix it in the future?

        And no, I am not attacking you or anyone else personally, I am just getting very fed up with the general response I've been receiving to what should have been a helpful suggestion, so my words are getting edgy.

          What is wrong with having your story blacklisted anyway? If you want to get powerstones, rise in rankings, and get paid, then you should probably follow the rules and norms of the site that you want to be paid by. I agree with people being able to do what they want, but the platform also has the right to do what they want.

          There are a lot of other places you could write, so find one that suits you better... For example, I only write in Webnovel when I’m writing on my phone. When writing on my computer in try-hard mode, I write on a site that I like better (but isn’t good on mobile).

          In regard to emojis being essential for stories that involve texting or are cute/humorous, I disagree. That’s like saying a story needs pictures to convey ideas or imagery. The idea of a written story is using words to convey ideas. By the way, picture books to that too, just in a different way.

          You can describe emojis like you describe what a character looks like:

          “Hi!!!” her message read, with seventeen heart emojis at the end.

          That gives you freedom to do what you are trying to do without adding a bunch of 💜💜💜💜 in your text. I personally prefer that. You can disagree, but I don’t think it’s a monstrosity to forbid emojis. To me, it doesn’t even restrict your creative expression because of my example above...

          Heck, I like websites that don’t let authors release works that aren’t finished or meet certain minimum standards. As a reader, that is way less frustrating! This app doesn’t do that. You can release novels without a single complete sentence, and some people do (haha). I’ve accepted that a lot of what I read on webnovel will have a lot of mistakes in it that I’m not used to seeing in finished products. I also haven’t seen one ending to any story on the entire app (I also haven’t been here that long).

            shadowdrake27 17 heart emojis, damn, this girl texting is really passionate lmaoo

            :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:

            that's a lot of hearts :joy:

              shadowdrake27 I also haven’t seen one ending to any story on the entire app

              Bunch of translations finished, bunch of Original authors botched their ending with unsatisfactory excuses while starting a new novel, and some authors actually finished their novels with a satisfactory ending. But the number of finished novels is like a pinch of salt in a pond, and most of the novels here will never reach the mid-point, let alone an ending.

              Wonder how long it will take for this to change.

                LucyPanDora

                So? Now you know the solution to your issue. Just don't use those characters. I understand that you got the run around, but hey, welcome to dealing with customer service. That's what happened when the internet company connected the wrong house to my account.

                You got your answers from them. Maybe they couldn't figure out why the other novels didn't trigger the system. But they did tell you not to use the weird characters, but you tried to tiptoe around it. And then, you missed taking out a character. How is that the CEs fault? They whitelisted you each time.

                I mean, I don't get mad that I can't make a fancy table to display game stats for a character or include insert pictures like others sites do. Granted, you don't get blacklisted for that, but you work with whatever the site offers and chalk up mistakes as a learning experience.

                Look, I'm not trying to defend the CEs or anything. I'm not a contracted author. But anyone can see that when your novel gets blacklisted 5 times, then there's something going on and maybe they are getting a bit tired of dealing with it. Just try returning any item to a store 5 times and tell me the store doesn't get annoyed with you.

                  RABBITICOL

                  Thanks for the info! Seems like that is typical here, and it probably will be frustrating forever, haha. Some of the translations seem really good! That are pretty long though. Hopefully, we can read a user-generated good ending one day!

                  yaoyueyi

                  Yes, she is very expressive. A message like that would give me a headache in real life...

                  shadowdrake27 Plenty of great books have little visual aids. Harry Potter books have illustrations at the beginning of every chapter.
                  Are they necessary? No.
                  Is J. K. Rowling a lesser writer for having those illustrations? No.
                  Do they add anything to the books? Definitely!

                  On the other hand, you have authors that add snide sexist comments all the time and everyone forgives these guys for their culture or whatnot. They aren't blacklisted for putting down a woman for her chest size when an eye-roll emoji is blacklisted? For basically just quoting a typical chat of a character that would use one? Even the support staff used an emoji at the end of his/her tirade.

                    kazesenken You know, good customer service is about trying to fix a problem. Why is it unreasonable for an author to want to use an already commonly used format in her storytelling? The response reminded me of the response letter of the insurance company in Erin Brockovitch. Not that strongly, but it wasn't nice, helpful or patient. Certainly not empathetic.

                    Everyone deals with cr ap on a daily basis, but you know what? If you are going to sign up for support or service, be prepared to try to be helpful and patient, not defensive or off-putting. The author was not rude nor was she unreasonable. Support just decided to treat her like she was when they themselves were lacking.

                      RABBITICOL Good point, though good intention may not result to something everyone wants but we can also agree there are still hidden motives to it.

                      Like for say, "Since you guys don't like those Chinese, Japanese and other letters. We will restrict it but we will add something as an finger for your continuous annoyance." Something along those lines lol.

                      Ok, back being serious.
                      The issue really is the fact that (1) CE doesn't really have that much power and control over things whether they have direct contact with the users or not. (2) In addition to that, they have limited time and man power to do so. Ignoring the fact that they also have to follow certain company guidelines on what to do, hence the 1st point.
                      (3) Using automated bot system is good only as a support and yet they rely on it too much to do most of the work. Remember, this is not an AI but the very base prototype that is restricted to it's code and would require recoding if there are changes to be made which is doubtful whether they are doing it frequently (week basis) or rarely (only when they need to/lazy).
                      And last but not the least is (4) the new authors who keep asking for either the unblock a or perms to use special characters where their ideals clash with the first three points. Expecting for something to be given just because you asked while tying to bypass their procedures doesn't really help. It just slowly escalate until one side finally blows up.

                      Playing the blame game doesn't really do anything here but most of the good writers on my list never really complained about these kinds of stuff and just adapted themselves in to the site's "norm" until finally getting that sweet green flag to do whatever they want.

                      The only advice I could really say is similar to the guy above is be patient and gain it fairly like others (the boring white coat worker way) or just continue waiting for that gacha level scenario of keep asking and hope they don't erupt into making your situation worse than it is (fight me way)

                      Honestly, I'm not that knowledgeable to say how to handle yourselves in this case. Rest would agree as it is really up to you how you go on from here, whether you listen to our oppinions or not.

                      If I may add to my last post, another addition is the support's lack of knowledge how to handle to situation as well as their vague response isn't really helping.

                      As a support operator, they require to be straight on point without ruining the company image and yet most support operators in any sites does the opposite.

                      This shows that they lack experience and capability to handle the situation despite knowing the issue. There are ways to deal with these stuff like contacting their superiors or those related in handling the issue concerned but the problem is most people has this pride mentality when working that they don't wanna ask for help from their co-workers. Thinking that they could handle it all by coming up with things.

                      (I had experience working at this situation and I was the same, in the end of the day I told the supervisor in charge that the job wasn't for me)

                      We dunno if this is the case for the operators on this site, but we can see that not trying to communicate with their co-workers or not knowing which person to direct the issue to may also have a hand in this scenario.

                      Back to the being straight on point, the term "as long as it is English letters" is vague cause there are other formats that also use English letters which include letters that can't be found on others and this is exactly what instead solves the problem makes it bigger.

                      Yes, none of both parties are nerds but as for the operator's side. It is part of their job to atleast know these minor details that would make their job easier to do. It is not required but it is a basic thing that anyone working on something computer related should know regardless if you are in a coding department or not.

                      Idk what else happens in the background but as for work ethics, this is already a minus for me (although I was the same just for one day and should also be ashamed of myself).

                      Elinchrom

                      I never remember writing anything in support of sexist comments. We can agree that we don’t like to read that type of stuff along with other topics that I have seen people complain about in novels. Anything I write will not promote these types of things. However, if this is a website that has translations from Chinese authors, their culture and ideas will be in the book even if I don’t like them.

                      I’m not “supporting” that, it’s just a fact. The author is the one who gets to choose how he/she talks about these themes not the reader. The reader can only choose to not read (and hopefully not pay for) work from an author that writes things they don’t agree with.

                      As for the unwritten question of why the program black lists emojis and not sexism, racism, or anything else we agree is not an appropriate topic that we want to promote, how would you write a program for that? Programs follow hard, unbending rules. If you tell the program to blacklist a key word like “sexism” or some vulgar word that is demeaning to women, then it flags that word and nothing else.

                      In other words, it wouldn’t search for instances of sexism and flag that. Only the word would be flagged. It would also be flagged regardless of how it is used. “Sexism is bad” and “sexism is good” would both get your post/novel blacklisted. Keywords can be tricky because they don’t account for tone and how words are used.

                      What you are after is more moderators and a working report system. While I agree, this seems like a separate issue. Unless, of course, you have a simple program that you can run to detect sexist undertones in writing? If so, please share your invention with websites like this one.

                      Back to emojis or pictures adding to the story: I never said they didn’t. My point was that there are ways to use words to convey the same meaning. If you read my post, you will find that I used the analogy of a picture book. Both a picture book and regular text-based book can tell the same story in different ways. If one way doesn’t work, you can still use the other.

                      To use another analogy, this is like us arguing over if biking or driving a car to work (or school) is better. You say driving is better because it gets you there faster, easier, and With the comfort of air conditioning. None of that is wrong, but I can still say that biking is healthier because it gives you more exercise. Fresh air might also be a benefit to the bike for me. Bottom line is that we both get to where we want to go in a way that we like.

                      Now, if there is a bicycle race, don’t try to enter with your car! You can argue that the car will complete the course faster, but the people running the race still aren’t going to allow it. Using a car rather than a bike is against the rules of their race. If you want prize money, figure out how to ride the bike.

                      If you missed it, the bike is a story with only words, and the car is a story with emojis. It’s a crude example, but it demonstrates what I’m trying to say.

                      RABBITICOL Syosetu (Japanese Webnovel) is the same, even the Korean and Chinese sites I go to. Technically, Hiatus is a part of every book site's scars of war regarless of what language or country it is from.

                      Though, adding the "Hide Inactive/Hiatus/Paused Novel on Listings" check option would be a nice addition. but that would require a lot more coding to add on this site that is already more than complicated as is (don't even mention the app version where most options are only available to).

                        Lol’d at both sides of the argument

                          I wont take part in the argument, since I have no knowledge on any algorithms and I suck at my customer service job too :'D. I'm here to just give kudos to the author.

                          You are doing great in the rankings, although you got your novel whitelisted after half of the contest had gone by. That is a great feat on its own! Good work! :)

                          A lot people here seem to totally be missing the point or haven't even bothered to read what the topic is about.

                          The OP is saying that ability to use emoji gives value to certain situations. Yet suddenly there are a bunch of people criticizing her "bad writing", pointing out that none of the "real" novels use emoji, and preaching about how using excessive emoji is horrible.

                          Do you guys have comprehension issues? If so, it would seem you need to go back to English classes yourself and not the OP. Also, if you want to gain the right to criticize her writing, then you should at least go check out an example of her writing first. I've been reading her novel since early on so I can honestly say that her usage of emojis was really well placed. Yes, I am still greatly enjoying the recent chapters which have no emoji, but I miss them.

                          And as a webnovel user who has previously flung my money at webnovel, I am downright furious that they are removing something I, who is paying them, enjoy.

                          And treating authors which provide them content to monetize like they are nuisances is downright hilarious and shows how lacking in foresight they are.

                          Then there are guys constantly harping about "if you want to write on webnovel, you must conform to the rules of webnovel". And what are those inspoken rules? That discrimination between novels, even if both are not premium, is all fine and well and you should just quietly accept it?

                          It's like saying, if you want to live in China you have to obediently accept the censorship that won't let you say bad words, read smut or watch porn, and definitely not try to skirt around it, illegally download it, and especially not fight it. Instead of trying to fight for a better future, you should gtfo of China!

                          You guys are ridiculous. At this point I'm not even mad, I pity you.

                          shadowdrake27 "In regard to emojis being essential for stories that involve texting or are cute/humorous, I disagree."

                          Please point out where in this thread anyone said that emojis are essential.
                          And if they aren't essential, does that somehow invalidate the point that having the ability to use them is better than not having it?

                          "To me, it doesn’t even restrict your creative expression because of my example above..."
                          Are you seriously saying that it doesn't restrict creative freedom while replacing what you initially wanted to say with something else? I don't know what more to say besides that you should try googling the definition of "creative freedom".

                          "Heck, I like websites that don’t let authors release works that aren’t finished or meet certain minimum standards."
                          Oh, so what you are saying is that every web novel should meet the minimum standards of not using a single emoji otherwise they are trash that shouldn't appear on a webnovel site. Thank you for your opinion. And I hope that you are aware that just because you believe in something it doesn't make it true.

                            Elinchrom Thank you.

                            Though, I want to point out that not all of my experiences with webnovel staff were bad. I had the pleasure of running into a support staff a few days ago that was simply delightful. Out of around 6 questions I asked, they didn't know the answer to any one of them, but instead of making things up or getting angry, they handled it with such dignity.

                            They simply said "Wait a moment please" and went to ask someone who does know the answer.
                            And they did it six times. And through the entire time they always returned with the answer and never lost their patience in any way. They didn't feel like their ego was insulted and feel the need to make me look like I am asking something unreasonable so that they can feel better about themselves.

                            Left them a five star rating.

                            That's what the support staff should be like. It's not a big deal if they don't know something. It is a big deal if they forget that their job is to help their users.

                            Speaking of delightful staff, CE also have lovely people. Chloe for example was very nice. Thank you Chloe ❤

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