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Justforfun Of course. Human morals are made up by humans. Human rights and laws are also made up by humans.
Of course the concept of rights is against the survival of the fittest, the true laws of nature. But that's what the world is like now, with humans dominating with our creations that bring pollution.
I don't really put my trust in human rights, morals, and laws, but as they are what most humans follow and believe in, I can't really do anything much about it (especially not now).

Thanks for speaking up.

Necroghan Small nitpick - you do realise that you made the entire list of conversational arguments that are void and manipulative by their essence? To name the few:
- Ad populum
- Straw Man argument
- Pettito Principi
- Thought dichotomy
and lastly - thought hastening.

The make it simpler, few logical flaws in your post above:
- I'm on vegan diet and I feel better.
- (Response) and I had a friend that was vegan too but he died. By a car crash, but according to your logic above, I can now blame all forms of veganism for the currently occurring car accidents.

And one general point that you made about survival of the fittest.

Tell me, can any animal randomly kill you on the street? No, for the overwhelming majority, it can't. Why is that? Because humans created an einvoriment that is safe for them. Not by using their power alone, but by using their brains.

Do you know what caused one of the most deadliest events in human history (outside of those done by a human hand that is?) Rats. Actually, the story is a lot longer here, but rats alone killed off a third of Europe's population during the widespread outbreak of black death pandemic. Did they do it willingly? Not. They were just living as they used to since ages ago. Did they cause the black death? Yes.

Humans as the most intelligent species on the planet isn't outside of the influence of the survival of the fittest (which has been proved to be a complete bullocks over and over again). It's just that our intelligence as a species (because that's how this topic should be argued about, with species not individuals in mind) gave us such an overwhelming edge that continued to profit over ages, that no other species could compete with us.

It's that simple.

Also, for the main topic:
For as long as the animals won't reach human level of intelligence, they will be always inferior to humans. Animals are abused, that's a fact. Animals are loved, that's also a fact. By giving them rights above what they have already (not my fault its not properly enforced), you made them equal to humans. And in general, in nature, one's possibilities always were dictated by his contribution. For as long as animals won't work day and night shifts, won't develop science and won't send their own to the moon, they won't be equal.

LopingWolf Also, saying:

"If you don't like the topic then don't speak about it" is idiotic. Imagine yourself living barely 80 years ago and meeting a nazi soldier who would tell the same thing to your face. "If you don't like jews being killed then don't bring this topic up in the first place."

Don't bar others from the discussion only because they are not thinking alike. By just a tiny stretch, its exactly what the tyrans across the world are doing. How does it feel to act like the group of people scorned by the entire civilised society all the while trying to appear as the 'good person' by tackling the morally hard problem?

MotivatedSloth

Well you're certainly forcing the map to fit the ground.

And not actually saying anything in the process.

You're trying to justify (something, not clear what) by suggesting that the black death killed people and was passed around by rats.

It was, well done.

My main focus was from a today-onwards, stand point.

I thought I made that clear when I said:

Necroghan We should not consider ourselves part of the food chain, we have advanced beyond that.

So please tell me how your rant about the black death applies in a modern world?

With hygiene and medicine where it is right now?

Does your point hold any water?

No, we have advanced beyond that point in history.

I actually don't understand what your point is. Because you've failed to actually make one. You just spewed up a word-salad.

You're not actually correcting any of my points, though you seem to be under the misconception that you are.

As for your sharp right turn in logic on veganism, I did not make any leaps at all like that.

I stipulated that research had been done. There was conclusive evidence (plenty of documentaries on netflix you can watch for yourself). When I tried it for myself, I did feel better.

Necroghan We have the ability to live without hurting them. It's even healthier for us. This has been proven many times. All the lies you have been told about proteins and dairy by the meat industry. Is just that, lies.

I just presented some facts, not some crazy theory.

All my points are valid. They are not misleading. They are things I have experienced myself. I can only assume you dislike them because you somehow feel offended.

Or maybe it's cognitive dissidence. Who knows?

Necroghan Initially I thought about replying properly, but given how 49% of your reply is a rant, 49% of your reply is pretending to claim that Netflix documentaries have ANY scientific value, while the other 2% will be you trying to diss my point without even noticing what it was.

So I will put it in simple words for ya - If you cannot take responsibility for your actions, you will never be equal to those who can. This simple rule is even reflected in most of the laws with a point that people below legal age cannot enter any legal agreement. Because they are incapable of shouldering responsibility. Responsibility, black death, one's own actions, rats. Does the bell rings now?

LopingWolf But yes, you're right. Our opinions differ, so let's just go and look at stuff we enjoy, right? I'm not sure why you even bothered posting here actually, as you clearly don't enjoy reading this.

This is the part that bars others from entering the discussion, because with this the OP can claim that any post not to his liking is bad, hateful, and any other of the modern empty words crowd uses to go hunt for witches.

Necroghan I actually don't understand what your point is.

That can sum up everything in your point. You failed to spare this minimal effort required to focus and read what I wrote, not my problem you are apparently (according to your own words) incapable of understanding that. But hey, that doesn't call for attempting to insult me. If I were to talk with a physic scientists and he would start uttering magic words way beyond my knowledge ( you know, I'm lightly joking here with 'magic words' meaning the job specific jarrgon that I'm not well-versed with in case you once again would fail to understand what I consider entry level of discussion) that wouldn't give me any right to say that "he failed to make point" or "he spewed up a word-salad". That's the level you are currently at.

Necroghan You're not actually correcting any of my points, though you seem to be under the misconception that you are.

"I'm a vegan and I feel great! Ever since I became a vegan, my life changed 2083745608237456%, I started nailing world class models, my imouto grew wings and turned into an angled and wild animals often visit my home for a cup of tea and snacks" - This is how your "arguments" sounds like. The fact that something works for you, doesn't make it universal. And the fact that you are using Netflix, which is extremely leftist platform spending hefty amounts to promote all sorts of the nowadays popular and oppressive ideologies, you prove that you lack any proper science backpad to rest your claims on.

Did you notice that I never claimed that Veganism and other sects are harmful? Because contrary to the black-and-white, simplified world that you live in, I'm perfectly aware that this topic is hard. Hard because human science is still far away from understanding everything about human bodies, how they operate, what they need and all. Just like back in the days people used X-rays to check if a shoe they wanted to buy was fitting nicely because they didn't know about its harmful effects, I believe that we have yet to determine whether or not eating meat is better or worse. For that matter, I personally BELIEVE that due to the simple biology making digesting the animal-sourced food easier for our stomach, meat is a necessary although in small amounts part of our diet.

Necroghan So please tell me how your rant about the black death applies in a modern world?

Once again, since you can't enforce rats to wash their paws and stay clear from human properties/food, you can't make them take responsibility for it, hence making them less than our equals. And this point applies to all the animals.

Necroghan I just presented some facts, not some crazy theory.

So far, you have yet to provide a single fact. Google what's the difference between a fact and your personal opinion.

Necroghan Comparing it to Nazi Germany *ahem 'thought dichotomy' is ridiculous.

This is a simple way to learn whether your point actually makes a moral sense. If killing a human is bad, then why killing a fly should be any different? Reversly, when asking a question, is killing a fly for fun bad or a good thing, you can extrapolate it on the first question I posed. I knew you would jump on this point because nothing irks people like you more than putting your own actions into perspective of greater scale.

Necroghan Calling somebody names is not the correct way to provoke critical thinking. It is not a constructive way to debate. You shouldn't be ridiculed for having a different opinion.

If you start throwing insults around. Generally its because people don't have a decent enough counter argument. So they resort to playground tactics.

Funny, I just read yesterday how people learned what ad personam is and use it as stopgap for any discussion. Dear hypocrite, if you want to stand on a moral high ground, then read your previous post and write profuse apology for each and every insult you inserted there first.

Pathetic.

LopingWolf Thanks for speaking up anyway, and I'm sorry if it appeared that way to you.

And that's how a normal person react when they are misunderstood. My bad mate, I'm just oversensitive regarding this topic, hence my nitpicking.

LopingWolf Honestly, I don't know if I actually care about animal rights. They are not like humans. If I punch a human, he's gonna punch me in return first. We probably are not gonna talk about human rights and get to the act of punching each other. Maybe if we are in a corporate situation, and injustice, like mental abuse enough to cause trauma, perpetual physical violence, etc. happen, then it is only fair to question human rights. Bullying is a serious issue in that regard.

Mental harm cannot be actually seen, sometimes goes unnoticed even for family members, the ones closest to the victim. The perpetrator might not even get any sentence, unless there is hard evidence against him. Even then, I don't know the law, so I don't know if there is any punishment for this.

The victim, on the other hand might even commit suicide or be mentally traumatised for the rest of his life. An innocent person might be corrupted because of this, his outlook on life would be negatively skewed. A person that might be willing to lend a helping hand to others before might just watch a cruel scene with an apathetic expression.

This is all because humans (a significant portion of them) have the tendency to silently endire, for various reasons.

But, this is not the case in animals (Wild animals to be exact. Domesticated ones are somewhat closer to humans in that regard). If I pick a bone with a wild animal, it is guaranteed that it would pick my bone. It is not gonna think about any 'Rights' that we humans speak.

rights and everything are stuff of modern society. You can fairly say animals live in an environment similar to the 16th century. You can argue on many fronts, but what animals pursue and what humans pursue are entirely different things.

Animals prefer only two things: food, and a place of safety from the elements. That's all.

As for humans, we have surpassed such a lifestyle ages ago. Just the fact that this world revolves around 'Entertainment' should speak of us. We no longer have to hunt for food, we no longer have to fear the rain, we no longer have to suffer to fill our belly. I'm not saying difficulties exist, but they are what they are, 'mere difficulties'.

I feel like I completely derailed from the topic here. Sorry about that, ahaha.

MotivatedSloth

MotivatedSloth LopingWolf But yes, you're right. Our opinions differ, so let's just go and look at stuff we enjoy, right? I'm not sure why you even bothered posting here actually, as you clearly don't enjoy reading this.

This is the part that bars others from entering the discussion, because with this the OP can claim that any post not to his liking is bad, hateful, and any other of the modern empty words crowd uses to go hunt for witches.

I'm not barring others from the discussion, I'm telling them to go enjoy themselves because clearly, they're not enjoying reading this and disagree with my views but also don't have/can't be bothered to offer proper arguments explaining why pet animals shouldn't be treated with proper respect.

MotivatedSloth LopingWolf Thanks for speaking up anyway, and I'm sorry if it appeared that way to you.

And that's how a normal person react when they are misunderstood. My bad mate, I'm just oversensitive regarding this topic, hence my nitpicking.

I meant that I'm sorry if it appeared to you as if I were barring people who disagree with my views from the discussion, which I'm not. Reasons are as I stated above.

Overlord_Venus Thanks for speaking up. You made a few interesting points that can be given much thought.

Wolfick

Wolfick Nobody is saying pets shouldn’t be treated with proper respect. Nobody advocates for animal abuse, but you are saying they should be equal with humans and treated the same way humans are.

I'm saying pet animals should be treated as our equals, not all animals. Also, treated as our equals is different from being our equals, which they aren't.

Wolfick However, you only want to treat them in human standards in specific ways which favor your opinion.

You mean treating pet animals with respect? Isn't that what we are taught to do from a young age? Treat other people with respect, at the very least?

Wolfick Hold those standards up to your house cat which tortures and murders mice why don’t you.

That is different. I'm saying treat pet animals with respect, but that doesn't mean protect every single one of them from harm because that is the way things work. But since humans made some animals into pet animals, we should treat them with respect. That's all I'm saying - treat them with respect.

Wolfick Ngl, this sends me huge bestiality warnings from you. Please ensure you look up your countries specific laws on this as some countries it’s legal, others it can be a death penalty.

Death penalty concerning "love"? Bestiality warnings from me? I meant loving someone, loving anyone of any gender and any race, just loving someone, especially in a romantic way. I meant to ask if everyone having the right to do that is part of human rights - but I suppose it isn't, not really, if some countries ban everything LGBT+ related ...? I haven't heard of people being banned from loving someone in a platonic way, but I have heard of bans on being LGBT+ in countries.

'LopingWolf' argument can overall be summarised into this: 'Love is absolute therefore if I love something then it makes it right and nobody should judge me.' SO I guess if I really really love my dog it would make it right by your logic to xxxxxxx it, and nobodyshould judge me....

It seems to me that some enthusiasts confuse cause and effect. Yes, animals have the right to a happy, comfortable life. However, this does not mean that we should restrict human rights because of animals. I prefer to strengthen the measures of responsibility of those who want to have a pet. It's not just about nutrition and care. This is an education first of all. I am the owner of three dogs myself and I know I can afford it since I have a house with a large backyard. I also began to use special gadgets that work smartly. So, I solved the problem of clean floors in the living room and kitchen)) My dogs always know where they can go right after a walk and where not. These are the basic things for training.