Webnovel.Forum

CrispyCritter Exactly, this is the problem I'm talking about! Not "one book costs $288" but how 9 volumes cost only $45 as opposed to $288. That's the comparison you should be making, i.e. "9 volumes cost $45 instead of $288 if you buy them in print" and not "1 volume costs $288."

Imagine if you just say "1 book of 1,611 chapters cost me $288! It's so expensive!" Nobody is going to take you seriously. But f you point out that you can buy 9 volumes worth of books in print for $45, yet you've to pay $288 for the same amount of content online - that's the real issue. That's like $32 per volume, which is almost twice the price of a regular paperback. That's what I meant - make true equivalence comparisons, not false ones. False equivalence will only cause people to overlook your problem and not take you seriously.

Tomoyuki That clears up what you're saying more, but then it seems like your're quibbling over semantics and not objecting to the very real problem that is being brought up.

Would you really claim it's not a "real problem" of WebNovel if someone says "The novel costs $288 on WebNovel but only $45 on Amazon"? (Using "novel" instead of "book" or "volume").

CrispyCritter I would say it's series, because unless you have the context, nobody is going to take you seriously when you count 1,611 chapters as a single novel.

I mean, you could say it's just semantics, but how would I know what the context is? The guy literally complained about purchasing a thousand chapters and he compared it to a single volume, especially since he mentoned kindle and Amazon books that only cost $7 (and obviously he's referring to single volumes from a series). Are you telling me that's semantics? Like I said, the former webnovel, Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei has a few hundred chapters that are spread out over 20-30 volumes. Why was he comparing 1,000 chapters of a finished series to a single $7 volume of a kindle ebook? If he actually added it up and compared it to the 20-30 volumes of Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei instead, you'll see that the price is actually reasonable. 20 volumes cost $140. So yeah, paying $150 does seem fair.

But that detracts from the real issue here, because you're paying $150 for unedited and low quality work off the Internet, as opposed to the professionally edited Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei that has wonderful illustrations. The point, though, is that, nobody will take you seriously when you cry about spending $150 for 1,000 chapters while comparing it to a single $7 volume that has 10-20 chapters. Aren't you going to roll your eyes and say, yeah, based on quantity of chapters, that price is obviously a given? But they will take you more seriously when you actually compare series to series, not a series to a single volume.

Maekellen Print is by page count and web by word count.

No. Print is also by word count. Professional authors get paid by the word, not pages. I don't know who told you that, but you're mistaken.

Maekellen In addition, there seems to be no consensus among web authors about how many words should constitute a single chapter.

Yes. You can have superlong chapters like in Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei, but then you can have short chapters like in Fixed Damage or Nidome no Yuusha or Healer's Redo.

Maekellen All of this means you cannot always tell how many volumes will be comparable to a completed web novel.

Yes. Obviously you're going to have less chapters in a single volume of Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei while you will have like 20 chapters in one volume of Fixed Damage.

Maekellen Further, as the original work is termed a novel, it is entirely accurate to make the comparison as price per novel instead of columes, series, et al.

No, that's not how it works. Technically, you can try to cram 1,000 chapters into a single "novel" but then it's definitely not going to cost as much as a novel with 20-30 chapters. Unless you're telling me that each chapter is only 100 words, which is definitely not being discussed here (because we have literal examples such as Against the Gods and novels here on Webnovel), in terms of word count, 1,000 chapters is way more than the words collated in 20-30 chapters, even if the chapters in these printed novels have like 5,000 words each. Typically, a printed novel has a word count of anywhere between 70,000 to 200,000 words, and are about 300-600 pages in length. Let's say a webnovel chapter has 500 words (and that's the lower end), even that is going to be 500,000 words, about 2.5-7 times the number of words you get in a typical print novel.

The quality, of course, is not there, so you simply end up paying for quantity, which is a problem. You're paying like 2 cents for every 200 words if I'm not mistaken. So the 1,000 chapters of 500 words is going to cost you like $50. A typical 70,000 to 120,000-word novel costs like $8-15, whereas a 600-page novel easily costs you about $25-$30. So if you count it by word count alone, the price isn't all that different. In fact, it seems to be a little cheaper. But we're talking about unedited, unprofessionally written, amateurish novels, so the issue is that you're paying nearly the same price for amateur work when compared to a professionally published novel.

But you can't just simply pretend that you can compare a 1,000-chapter webnovel that's anywhere between half a million to two million words to a single novel that's about 200,000 words max and complain about the price discrepancy. That's sheer dishonesty.

Maekellen I have seen the same paragraph, merely reworded, 3-4 timea in a single chapter. This is useless fluff that distracts from the atory and no one should have to pay for.

When this happens, why the f are you still reading the story and paying for it? That's the author's fault, boycott the author. Don't pay for recycled garbage and then complain that you're getting recycled garbage. Or did you think you're entitled to receive recycled garbage for free?

This is precisely the issue I'm raising. It's not the price and length of the damned webnovels when compared to the price and length of professional novels that's the problem. It's the quality. You can't just not pay people for their labor, but the problem is when these people decide to cut corners and skimp on quality. If you're not happy with the quality of their work, stop feeding them. Like, seriously. When their sales drop and people stop reading their stuff, they'll be forced to wake up and reflect on how to improve their writing. But if you're going to demand that they write for free or get paid less, then they won't take you seriously because they think you're entitled (and also because morons continue to pay for their work and lap this garbage up). That's common sense. Unless you're literally telling me that you're fine with reading garbage as long as it's cheap or free. Really?

CrispyCritter I'm talking specifically about how you can't compare the price of an entire series of webnovels to a single volume of a print novel.

Look, if Wuxiaworld is selling novels cheaper on Amazon, all the more power to them. Should Webnovel lower prices to compete with Wuxiaworld, especially given their low quality translations? Absolutely! But that's not what I'm arguing against here. I am simply arguing that you cannot make false equivalence comparisons by complaining about how an entire series of 1,000 chapters cost you $150 while comparing it to a single $7 volume. However, I agreed that you can compare that $288 1,611 chapters to a $45 series of 9 volumes. That's a fair comparison. Complaining that you have to pay $288 for 1,611 chapters when you can buy a single volume for $5? Nobody is going to take you seriously.

Also, you can talk about Wuxiaworld all you want, but what about other publishers? Should Kadokawa lower their prices too? Kodansha? Viz Media? The content you get from purchasing their $7-11 volumes is less than what Wuxiaworld offers. What about Black Library, whose novels are $17 for 90,000-100,000 words? Are you arguing that all publishers should lower their prices just because Wuxiaworld sells their products for an amazing price? These are literally the light novels that the other posters have been talking about, which was why I was measuring prices against them and not Wuxiaworld. You know, like how former webnovel series such as Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei, Sword Art Online, Dungeon Seeker, Fixed Damage and lots of other isekai novels on Syousetsuka ni narou got ported over to print novels? Isn't that the comparisons the others are making? That's the context I'm using. Of course I have no objections against calls for Webnovels lowering their prices, but these people are literally demanding that they should be able to buy entire series for $7 and not your $45, which is absurd.

Also, if Wuxiaworld is better, then readers should simply purchase from Wuxiaworld. Vote with their wallets, force Webnovel into reconsidering their marketing strategies by going to a more efficient and higher quality competitor. It amazes me that people unironically complain about how rubbish the translations are, yet they still stubbornly insist on reading them. It's as if they're saying that it's all right to read rubbish as long as they are cheap or free. Why are you even reading them in the first place?

Point is, not all criticisms are equal. Anyone can complain and criticize. But if you want people to take your criticisms seriously, you have to deliver a proper one, not simply make false equivalences and then wonder why nobody is listening to you.

CrispyCritter The OP made no claims that they should only pay $7; that's entirely you

Excuse me? Entirely me? I wasn't responding to the OP, I was responding to another poster called notimegamer.

notimegamer If I want to read a finished novel which is say 1000 chapters, you'll have to buy coins worth what , $150? For one book?????
LNs on Kindle are what $7 and hardcovers $14, regular hardcover books are what $20 at most?

This is literally what he said, and the person I was responding to, not the OP. When did I ever say I was responding to the OP? I said other posters, and I @ the people I was responding to.

You made false assumptions, twist my words and...I don't know, what are you trying to do? Attack me for no reason other than because you have a grudge against me or something?

CrispyCritter Why then are you comparing webnovel prices against books that have gone through multiple stages of re-writing and editing?

Because that's what the other poster was doing? I was simply explaining to him that he can't compare them because if you do that, the prices are reasonable, you were the one who jumped in. I didn't actually think they were fair comparisons - which is what I have been saying the entire time. I was simply explaining why I brought the issue up - because the other poster did in the first place. Also, I brought them up not actually because of the prices but because I was comparing lengths and quantity. They are good examples of how you can't simply reduce "1,000 chapters" to a single volume. Long-running webnovel series, whether Japanese or Chinese, get divided into multiple volumes. I was explaining how quantity works here, and I am certainly not saying that Webnovel translations should be sold at the same price as them. Just calling out hyperbolic statements made unironically by people who compare an entire webnovel series to a single volume composed of several chapters taken from a former webnovel series. Of course nobody is going to take them seriously if you make the quantity argument, because obviously you'll count volumes in terms of word count, and stories with larger word counts would naturally be more expensive.

Also, I was curious as to whether you think Wuxiaworld is on par with these same professional English publishers, which was why I asked that question of whether you think Kondansha and Viz Media should lower their prices. Is Wuxiaworld not professionally edited? If it is, that's an incredible price you're paying for their works.

CrispyCritter Please explain why you feel WebNovel's 500% extra charges for 1000+ chapter series are not ridiculous and not a "real problem".

I never said that. I admitted that it was a problem countless times. I agreed with you so many times that I don't know why you keep insisting that I claimed that it wasn't a problem. Stop putting words in my mouth. If you are going to twist my words or accuse me of saying things I didn't, then forget it. There's no point responding to you because you will just twist my words or put words in my mouth AGAIN.

I'll clarify one final time, though. If Webnovel did, in fact, professionally edit and translate their text, then obviously that 500% extra charge is worth it (especially when you compare it to translated Japanese light novels). The reason why they are currently not worth it is because they lack the quality. So if they stop the rubbish MTL and actually professionally edit and rewrite the works to be of higher quality, it's worth the price, right? Since people are willing to pay the same price for professionally edited Japanese light novels, after all. If they want to sell these works at the current price that's comparable to other professionally written works, they can, but they need to match the quality of those professionally written works (or at least reach a comparatively high standard proportionate to what readers pay for). But currently the quality is not worth the price you pay for it, which is the problem I'm talking about. Yes, they are overcharging for their current translations, demanding for a high price for poor quality. If they want to sell at the current price, they should either improve the quality. Otherwise, they should lower the price to match the subpar quality. That's my stand all this while. The issue I'm arguing against is that people compare quantity instead of quality, which destroys any ground of an argument that they have - on one hand they are willing to pay $7 for a professionally edited novel, so it makes no sense when they want to buy an entire series for the same price (again, this is why I brought up the Japanese light novels in the first place - to compare the lengh/quantity of how former webnovels get divided into multiple volumes, and not actually the price). So stop twisting my words and claiming that I said it isn't a real problem. I don't know what you're trying to achieve, but it's downright infuriating and dishonest of you.

Deepsea Since they are putting adds on fanfictions, will they pay royalties to the original content creators? How about the fanfiction writers?

CrispyCritter 1. The transition from Japanese webnovel to Japanese light novel almost always involves substantial effort from the author. The story is tightened up; minor plot lines and characters that didn't end up being as important as originally planned are removed.

Yes, that is what I'm calling for here. If Webnovel wants to sell the webnovels at a similar price, they must put in this substantial effort, tighten up the story, and make it publishable. Did you seriously think I was simply asking for professional line-editing? What do you think the words "professional edit" entail? It's not just simply passing off the story to another editor and expecting him/her to correct all the mistakes and improve the prose. They have to send it back to the author and demand for extensive rewrites as well. It's a two-way thing. It's not simply line-editing, but rewriting the story, making significant changes, improving it - and the editor doesn't do all that himself/herself. Obviously I was calling for substantial effort from the author as well. Otherwise how else are they going to reach the same quality? If the Japanese light novel industry is doing it, then why can't we hold the Chinese novel industry to the same standards?

Or are you just cherry-picking one sentence and ignoring everything else I said? Just, I don't know, to find fault with whatever I say? I was literally talking about quality throughout my entire post, but you decide to just nitpick one sentence and ignore everything else I said about quality and proportionate prices.

CrispyCritter 2. But even more importantly, the light novel publishers act as a gatekeeper to good stories and good writing.

CrispyCritter There is no evidence that if a publisher takes a random Japanese webnovel and spends money on editing it, that it will turn into a good Japanese light novel worth $6 a volume.

Isn't that the same thing for translated works here? Webnovel doesn't simply pick random titles to get translated, they choose the most popular ones (though the process leaves a lot to be desired with the energy stones and machine translations, which is just atrocious). Also, you must be joking if you think all light novels are good stories and good writing. You ever read Fixed Damage and all the revenge stories? Nidome no Yuusha? The Hero shall use darkness to exterminate (or whatever BS title that was)? The Redo of Healer? The Epic Tale of the Forsaken Hero? Or maybe even Isekai Cheat Magician, which isn't revenge but still...pretty awful. Even after professional editing, the end product still comes across as...amateurish, childish and downright bad. But people still purchase them (probably because of the illustrations and wish fulfilment). Gatekeeping? Really? And they're still sold at about 1,200 yen or so, to cover illustrations and production costs.

There are interviews where Japanese publishers admit that most of the webnovel writers at Syousetsuka ni Narou are terrible writers, and they have to pretty much rewrite the stories from the ground up just to get published. Yet they put themselves through the ordeal of rewriting and editing anyway. Yet people still purchase them. Yet you still have the petty, childish and trashy revenge stories with cringeworthy dialogue still being published. The gatekeeping isn't as secure as you appear to think it is.

Nonetheless, the reason why I brought up the web novels to light novels example isn't to compare the quality or the prices - as I repeatedly said, and you keep missing the point over and over again, it is an unfair comparison that misses out a lot in terms of quality - but to compare the length. Because people seem to insist on comparing a single volume composed of several chapters from a former webnovel to an entire webnovel series of over 1,000 chapters. That's the only fair comparison I'm making. Not the quality, not the prices, not the rewrites, not the illustrations. I don't get why you keep missing this point over and over again.

Basically notimegamer and Maekellen said: Why am I paying $150 for 1,000 chapters when a single volume of another light novel series cost $7?
Me: You do realize that the light novel volume you just compared 1,000 chapters worth of a webnovel series to is composed of several chapters from a former webnovel series, and not the whole thing?

That is the only reason why I'm comparing webnovel series to light novels. The length and quantity. Not the price, not the quality, not anything else. I don't know how much simpler I have to break this down to you to understand. The single sentence you cherry-picked was simply an example of how much effort and resources they need to invest to match the prices of their competitors, and not because I literally think the solution is as simple as professional line-editing (in fact, I never specified line-editing - I generalized professional editing as an entire process that includes rewriting, cutting, rearranging, making stuff more consistent, etc.) or because I really think the current Chinese webnovels are comparable to professionally published Japanese light novels. That's just one of the many steps of the writing process to raise a story to acceptable quality. It was meant more to be an example than a direct comparison, something you would have understood if you didn't simply cherry-pick and quote me out of context.

CrispyCritter But you seem to be proposing that if WebNovel pays for professional line-editing, that all of its webnovels will suddenly be equal in quality to this cream of the cream, and thus be worth the prices WebNovel is charging?

Again, not just professional line-editing, but substantial changes and efforts on the part of the author, illustrations, and a lot of other changes. As you pointed out, this isn't simply something that professional line-editing can fix. I don't know how you define quality, but I'm sure quality isn't something that happens simply because of professional line-editing alone.

Also, you miss what I said. Probably because cherry-picking benefits whatever agenda you might have, eh?

Tomoyuki So if they stop the rubbish MTL and actually professionally edit and rewrite the works to be of higher quality

Tomoyuki or at least reach a comparatively high standard proportionate to what readers pay for

Tomoyuki Otherwise, they should lower the price to match the subpar quality.

I am not suggesting they sell at light novel prices just because they suddenly have professional line-editing (improving the quality of a webnovel is so much more than professional line-editing, by the way), but match their prices to the quality they are currently selling at. But if they want to sell at light novel prices, then they must do everything that the Japanese light novel industry does - which includes rewriting, one-on-one consultations with the author (maybe even tutoring or mentoring), investing more resources, illustrations, and a whole lot of other things that go into the writing process. If they don't want to invest those resources and improve the quality, then lower the bloody prices.

Seriously, though, it sounds like you're clutching at straws and finding fault with everything I say just for the sake of it. I said they should try to reach the same quality as professionally published novels if they want to sell at similar prices, and you respond by cherry-picking one of my sentences and nitpicking, "but Japanese light novels are only of this quality because they do X and Y, yet I can only interpret you as saying Chinese webnovels will reach the same quality through professional line-editing alone." Like, how did you even come to that conclusion? I didn't even mention line editing specifically. You assumed that on your own. Couldn't you have logically concluded that I was proposing that they do the same X and Y editorial stuff that the Japanese light novel industry did? Why are you so desperate to find fault with everything I say?