lozlo

That's not what I said...

I was talking about the writers getting paid that they should be honored they're making any money. As their many writers who have lost money in this line of work.

If something is free, a reader has no entitlement to anything. If a reader-pays, they can make whatever demands they desire as a client of the author. Of course, in turn, an author can pick their clients, just as a reader does.

Writers provide a service, I can reject or not reject as desired.

Also, I'm not a contracted author, I have seen the contract, it's something I would never sign. I have been offered other contracts, from other companies, but that's because they were interested in my work, which I consider an honor, with those offers I can reject or take at my desire. Just like a reader can not read my writing.

      Tomoyuki True. But there are quite a lot of good stories there for free. And, even if you find one you like that isn't, they are usually in the neighborhood of $3 or under per book, as opposed to the 10-150 you would pay here. That's not even touching on the quality difference. And I was mostly just listing it as an alternative because I didn't want to mention their direct competitor, lol. Who, by the way, is making much better business decisions from what I've seen. But that's just my opinion. Time will be the true judge.

          Acutelittletrap Yeah. Once you start talking about money it becomes far more complicated. On one side I want to feel that no amount of money entitles you to make demands of an author. But, on the other hand, I also feel that authors have certain responsibilities once they start making money selling their product. It's hard to balance so I usually don't try.
          I've heard a little bit about the contract here, as well as the contracts for normal Qidian authors. Nothing specific, but I've heard it's not good at all. I'm always surprised that people accept it. I've always favored going with Patreon or Amazon. But that has its own obstacles as well.

            lozlo I am not quite sure about what you mean when you say they went back on their word. I am certainly not too familiar with Qidian so you might be right about it. I do not know. Oh, well, that's how it works everywhere, doesn't it? They are bound to put stuff for free in the initial days and they are bound to monetize it as they get customers. Readers are customers here. I mean, ultimately this is a business and I guess we all know this is how it works regardless of what one feels about the same.

                Acutelittletrap You called Cantiara a moron, and now you're backpedaling. You quoted her, replied directly to her, addressed her point, and then after three paragraphs, you suddenly finished with

                Acutelittletrap In short, you're a moron.

                That does not sound like you are referring to people in general at all. But go ahead and lie about it in front of everybody, it makes you more persuasive, I'm sure. And makes you "right."

                Again, most professional writers earn a few hundred times more than Webnovel writers. By your math, if professional writers earn several thousand dollars (up to ten grand) a month by writing 2K or more words a day, then Webnovel writers should earn half of that...maybe a thousand or two thousand dollars for writing a little over half of that amount. But they don't even earn that much - the average writer on Webnovel earns $10-$50 a month at most, and you're saying that even though they put in a fraction of work as a professional author, they should still earn ZERO. Nothing. Math isn't your strong suit, obviously. None of the authors here complain about earning so little, because they are aware of their lack of quality, and no one is demanding to earn a professional author's paycheck, or for full royalties. Yet you are here demanding that they write and work for free, and be denied pocket change. Let's go along with the argument that professional writers deserve the thousands of dollars they earn because they put in all the work, they get professional editing done, they polish their works. That doesn't lead to the conclusion that amateur writers on Webnovel should earn zero. They do a fraction of the work that pro writers do, therefore they earn a tiny fraction of what professional authors earn. Isn't that natural? What's the problem there? You're essentially saying "it doesn't matter if they do a fraction of what a pro writer does, they don't even deserve that tiny fraction of income, they must write for free." How does that even make sense? If you do x/100 amount of work that a pro authors does, and earn less than x/100 amout of what he/she earns, then it's natural, but you are here saying that Webnovel writers should earn absolutely zero.

                And you claim that you are right, and writers are wrong. I think there is something seriously messed up with your head. Not only are you a liar, you are deranged.

                Writers are not blaming others. If they suck, they suck. If nobody reads their stories, then they have failed, evidently. They have nobody to blame except themselves. The problem here is that readers demand that these writers provide chapters for free - like what you are doing right now. If readers like the story to the point they are willing to pay for it, then the writer has succeeded, regardless of whether he/she is an amateur, writes 1,300 words a day, and publishes on Webnovel or not. However, what people like you are doing is coming on here and saying they should not be paid at all even though they put in the corresponding amount of work.

                Evidently there is something wrong with you, and you will delude yourself into believing how you are "right" no matter how much people point out the holes in your logic (and here you are criticizing writers for plot holes, I don't think you're in any position to do so, given your own leaps of logic and delusional mentality).

                I have no problem with readers. I have a problem with you. I am not blaming pirates or readers. I am blaming you. Even worse, you yourself admitted that a writer "works for people" and then you turn around and say that they don't deserve to make any money. How in the bloody f-ing hell does that even compute? If people don't bother to pay a single cent, what makes them think they have the right to demand whatever standards they want? Why the f should a writer listen to a "reader" demanding for free mass releases when he/she doesn't get a single cent or benefit in return? Why should a writer spend hours a day writing for an unreasonable, demanding audience who refuses to invest a single cent and demand that he/she writes for free? He/she is better off doing other things with his/her time, like gaming, or watching a movie or indulging in other hobbies. Or getting a parttime job that actually pays him/her a lot better.

                Acutelittletrap t's the writers job to be WORTHY of the money of their readership.

                Duh. So you're agreeing with what I said, essentially. You've been picking and choosing what I said, and ignoring the rest (pretty rich, considering what you're accusing me of).

                Tomoyuki I don't go to a restaurant and demand that I get food for free because it's bad or that I can get better food for cheaper elsewhere, I just don't visit the restaurant in future (and seriously, why wouldn't I go straight to that better and cheaper restaurant in the first place?!). Similarly, if the writer is really that bad, then nobody will buy his/her book, and eventually he/she will have to buck up and find a way to regain his/her readerbase. The readers should just not buy his/her book. Not go onto the forums whining about how he/she should provide his/her book for free. Is logic not your strong point?

                So you do not deny what I said here, do you? You are basically reiterating what I just said, and I don't know how that suddenly leads to "writers should write for free, and if they ask money for their works, they are entitled." No, that's not how the real world works. You don't get to walk into a shop, tell the cashier that this product or that product is of poor quality and thus you should get it for free. If you think it's poor quality, you go buy something else that's of better quality or cheaper. Not demand that people give away poor quality stuff for free. When you create a product and put it up for sale, the consumers have the right to decide whether they want to buy it or not. If it's of poor quality, naturally they will not buy it. Who the f goes and says, "your product sucks, you should produce and give it away for free"? No, it's up to the readers to walk away from a product they deem terrible, not demand that they be given the product for free. Do that in a shop, and you'll get arrested for shoplifting. If Webnovel writers are bad, then they deserve to lose readers. No one is contesting that. What I'm contesting is you declaring that Webnovel writers do not deserve a single cent even though you admitted themselves that they WORK and are subjected to demands of their customers/readers/consumers. Your logic is highly flawed, and I honestly am surprised how you can go and delcare yourself "right" and then attack other people for their plot holes or lack of consistency and logic, or even call other people a "moron."

                If I put words in your mouth, I apologize. I guess I got carried away because it seems that all these readers demanding for free chapters or more free passes kind of blend in together, and I mix you all up. That is no excuse, I understand, and sorry about that.

                However, if Iozlo, me, Kazesendou, Cantiara and a bunch of other posters "misinterpreted" what you said (like your insults being directed at people in general even though you @ Cantiara and then called her a moron), then maybe the problem is with you and the way you write. As you pointed out, instead of blaming other people and accusing them of being wrong, they should improve themselves, but somehow that never applies to you because you are always right. Sucks to have your own hypocrisy pointed back out to you, huh?

                          lozlo Yeah, they really need to bump down the prices or give discounts for people who want to purchase chapters in bulk.

                          However, do take note that books that cot $150 aren't a single book. They consist of multiple volumes, so if you take that quantity and divide it out, it's actually still $10 a volume (just that they are all under the same series). It's like how Dengeki Bunko take webnovel series from Shousetsuka ni Narou and then publish them as several volumes under the same title (like Arifureta Shokugyou de Sekai Saikyou). Now I'm not saying that Webnovel should sell these volumes at the same price, but I am baffled when people complain about paying $150-$500 for a "single" book when they are effectively purchasing mulitple volumes of a single series. You will never see a single book have thousands of chapters - they will be divided into chapters if you ever publish them physically. Even so, I think discounts, or cheaper ways to purchase chapters in bulks should be considered seriously.

                              Tomoyuki That's why I had such a wide range 10-150. Believe it or not, there are a few books that are in the $150 range because there is so much filler that the author managed to stretch that one section for over 400 chapters. If they tried to break them up, they would end up with books with almost no progress, and you need to have progress with each book. They would need to be similar to a mini-story, even if they aren't all-inclusive.
                              The work that would need to be done before they could publish most of the Chinese novels physically would probably make it not worth it. They would seriously need to cut even some of their best novels in half going by word count. The irony of all this though, is that I actually have no idea what the quality of the stories for Original authors specific to Webnovel. That would probably be a different story.

                                  lozlo They still do it, though. I know for sure that Tian Can Tu Dou's webnovels, and Coiling Dragon, have all been published into several volumes in paperback. As is The Emperor's Avatar.

                                      Acutelittletrap

                                      So, after a good night rest and re-reading your post, I think I finally understood it. However, it's so fallacious (including the ad hominem) that I'm not sure if it was really directed at me or you were just using my post to make a sarcastic point.

                                      If it were the first, then I'm not going to waste my time to try to convince you otherwise because your personal attack has made you automatically lose the argument. If you'd like to re-offer your argument without it then you may still convince me. But otherwise, I'll just take my win and stop here.

                                      If it were the latter, then a bit of advice, try to convey your points properly and directly so people won't misunderstand you.

                                          Tomoyuki Really? Coiling Dragon is the example you want to use? Something that was done by the competitor and pirated by this site. It's even published at a reasonable price on Amazon, probably 1/6th of what this website would have charged to read it. It's practically the exact opposite of what happens here, and the number one reason I laugh when I see complaints here about people stealing novels and posting them somewhere else.

                                              lozlo

                                              That's simply not true...
                                              If you meant by competitor is WW, then they don't have the translation rights for this novel. They effective sold it to WN without the translator's permission. I'm not gonna elaborate more on this because of the legalities involved, but I just wanted to point out that it's not true that WN pirated this novel.

                                                  lozlo I was actually talking about the Chinese version that's being sold as paperbacks in retail, not on Amazon. As far as I know, Tian Cu Tu Dou's novels have not been translated into English and sold on Amazon, sorry for not being clear enough. But they are being sold as Chinese paperbacks in Kinokuniya, I actually saw them.

                                                  Also, what Cantiara said. Not sure if you can laugh about this when you don't even know the truth of the matter.

                                                      lozlo

                                                      lozlo Don't like that she hit a little too close to the truth eh? Your response makes it obvious that you know that she has a point. You even went to the trouble of making ridiculous examples about how you aren't forcing them to read. Lie to yourself if you want, but you're going to have to try harder if you want to lie to me.

                                                      This is the typical example of someone making an assumption, using it to prove his own point, and then use said point to prove that assumption was right in the first place. Thats a rather common logicial missconception used by people unable to participate in mature discussion, yet you can't even reach that level, without even a slightest attempt to prove your initial assumption, which I can tell you - is wrong.

                                                      It just irks me how entilted some people are, but just this fact alone makes them too worthless as discussion partners to warrant my serious response.

                                                      lozlo Lie to yourself if you want, but you're going to have to try harder if you want to lie to me

                                                      Sorry kiddo, I don't give any shts about you and your delusions. Your words only show how fragile your ego is.

                                                      lozlo More than a few people have posted facts with the numbers and stats to back it up, showing how ridiculous the prices are here.

                                                      Actually, there were like three enormous discussions, where people actually were respectfull and factual enough to get me to explore the topic in depth. In the end, it all got summed up by some other posts that used to be promoted at the top of the site, but I can't even be bothered to find what was the name of the discussion. I like to believe that I already made a name for myself on the forums with how active I used to be, so you can just ask around.

                                                      But there is one sentence that sums it up perfectly, so I will imperfectly quote it:
                                                      "Amazon and Webnovel are two diffrent things. On amazon, you pay for the finished product, while on Webnovel you are supporting author in order to get him to write."

                                                      While you could argue for a LONG time about whether its worth it or not to support people on webnovel, in the end, no matter what you say, it doesn't matter. If people keep paying, it means they believe the price to be fair. If they stop paying, WN will be forced to change their aproach, and so far, everyone is happy outside of leeches like you.

                                                      lozlo get one thing straight, the exploitation you feel is from Qidian, not the readers.

                                                      Thats actually pretty wrong. To exploit someone, means to unfairly takes advantage of him. Qidian proposed me a contract, and gave me way more than enough time for me to go through, and even delegated a person to clarify all the doubts that I could possibly have. The reality of publishing is harh, which most of the people complaining about contract simply doesn't realise. But since I was okay with the contract, I signed it. This is called a fair deal.

                                                      On the other side, its free readers that demands more chapters, lesser prices and all and going to pirate sites (for your information, yesterday someone showed me that my story is fcking top1 in recommended on a pirate app, I even downloaded it to check it out, and surprise surprise, its true!)

                                                      So no, it's pirates who exploit me, by stealing my work and letting free readers read it for free.

                                                      All in all, you are wrong in everything, every. single. sentence. you wrote, yet you act like you have any basis to prove being right. You are quite funny, I will give you that.

                                                                  Seriously people, there's no one correct way to defend either side of the story. Platforms will differ in how their business model is. The content of the stories and ideas greatly influence the demand and how well people accept it with all of its flaws.
                                                                  For example, I often make hundreds of dollars on a cheap draft of an idea which may or may not work and needs a professional editor to fix it up. And I get it edited for free through being sponsored by a company. You may think that is some kind of crazy fantasy, but it happens. These, my friends, are called patents.
                                                                  No one argument will fit the mold. The businesses will do whatever they can as long as money is there. Are they giving me the shaft by giving me only hundreds for an idea that could make millions? Maybe. Could the patent end up being a dud? Possible too. That's how the world works.

                                                                  Tomoyuki

                                                                  Stop comparing normal writers to the standard professional. It's just invalid. Most often, professionals have worked years and written millions of words before earning any money. Most self-published novels lose money, this is also a fact. This is akin to compairing a teenager who started playing basketball to a professonal in the NBA. Can they get to that point, sure, but their not their... So when you say professonal, you remove countless writers from the topic, which is unfair to them and a untruthfull comparison.

                                                                  When did I say writers should not earn money?
                                                                  "Also, to all you writers stinking of entitlement, it's stupid to assume or hope you will make money when you likely have not proofread/edited/ checked for plotholes or even obtained a beta reader. Hell all you have done, is likely publisher your first or second draft of an unfinished novel."

                                                                  This quote does not say that. It says, authors who have not put in the work, should not think they will get results, thinking that they will, is entiltlement.

                                                                  The problem is you're confusing my words with other things others have posted here, for example this WN, should be free idea or even daily chapters, as I have never said anything on this topic.- Well, I might have long ago, but never to this stance I am sorta being forced to defend.

                                                                  But, let me be clear, even though it was not said directly, my posts are meant for authors who earned/wish to earn money. A free service provides little entitlement to the user. - Stuff like known delays, or notice of a dropped novel, as it requires little effort to inform the end user.

                                                                  Also to readers who priate novels like the ones on webnovel, please look up lit-rpg on amazon often you can read them with KU, and most of these have some type of editing, unlike most WN's.

                                                                      Acutelittletrap If you did not mean that writers should not earn money, then I apologize. For some reason you came across as saying, "writers should not make money at all if they did not proofread/edited/checked for plot holes or published their first or second draft of an unfinished novel."

                                                                      Obviously, if you only meant that they should not get results if they don't put in the work, then I agree. But that wasn't very clear because you were the one who brought up the comparisons between professional and amateur writers in the first place, which made it look like you are implying that amateur writers should not expect to earn any income at all until they become professional.

                                                                      Also, when you talk about professional basketballers or NBA, and comparing them to a teenager who started playing basketball...well, we have something called sports scholarships. If you perform well in school and work hard in training (just like how you get popular with your daily updates, getting lots of votes and readers online on Webnovel), the school grants you scholarships. Companies sponsor your training. You receive a stipend (and are bonded to the company, which is basically the same as a contract). You still participate in regional school tournaments. So yes, even if you are a teenager who plays basketball at the "amateur" level, you can expect to get some income. That is not being entitled. The sponsors chose to invest in you because they see a bright future. Similarly, Webnovel chooses to give contracts to writers they deem promising because they update regularly and have managed to successfully built up a fanbase, which proves that they are doing something right in their writing.

                                                                      So I don't even know what exactly is the point you're trying to make, or who you are calling entitled. The contracted writers? Or writers who don't have a contract but demand that they be given one and that they deserve to be paid even though they haven't built up the necessary fanbase to prove that they can succeed in writing? If it's the latter, then your point is redundant, because their stories are free, do not require free pass to read, which is what the thread is about. And I have not seen any non-contracted writers coming on here and demanding a contract, and that has absolutely nothing to do with Webnovel being "exploitative" as LilyK claimed (and which Cantiara responded to, and you responded to her).

                                                                          Tomoyuki

                                                                          If you're talking about, college-level sports, well I can understand the thought, but I don't agree it's a valid comparison, in fact, I suspect college-level players are vastly underpaid. Often they give up money, to have a chance at the NFL/NBA, basketball players are currently starting to play oversea's to earn money as well. There has been a good amount of discussion on the topic, but many different viewpoints which seem interesting conflict with each other.

                                                                          Overall, whichever stance you have on it, It's just too complex to compare to a WN contract, in my viewpoint. I don't agree that WN has too much of a standard when it comes to giving contracts, which is why most of them don't earn much money past the minimum, and I don't think it's only because of pirating, though it is a huge factor on web novel.

                                                                          I never brought up the charging system or talked about, because I really don't understand it, but any and all free content in whatever amounts is a blessing for the end-user. (I did recommend the subscription system, long ago.) I'm talking about authors who think they earned money simply by writing when that's not the truth of the matter. Their many books, that have been written and have not earned a dime because the work has not been marketed, or simply is not up to standard, or its intent is not for a mass readership.

                                                                          As far as sample size, I think WN, is very liberal though they are cutting back on that ideal.

                                                                              Cantiara

                                                                              Tomoyuki
                                                                              I was around when this happened. I'm more or less as aware as you unless you have some secret connections. Even then, I've seen some of the lies Qidian told over the years, so I would doubt a source from them. I read the official statement from Ren regarding the matter back around when the book went on Amazon. So, I'm not wrong. But it's his word against theirs unless they both openly display the contract. I'll take his word since I know Qidian/Webnovel have a history or dishonesty. With that aside, Coiling Dragon is not the only novel Qidian is pirating here. I've seen more than a couple authors over the years trying to get their novels taken down from here and Qidian ignored them. Prime example. https://www.webnovel.com/book/15524618305756805/The-Forgotten-Conqueror.
                                                                              The author of this novel requested this be pulled down a while back, but it's still there. If memory serves, he refused to post it on here because he won't accept their terms. It was one of my favorite novels on Royalroad. Unfortunately, his releases are sporadic, but I think it's worth the wait.
                                                                              As a side note. Of the other two stories shared by that same author, one of them is an mtl of a Japanese novel. A quick search gave me nothing on the third one though.

                                                                              Tomoyuki Ah I see. I was referring to releasing them in English. When I spoke of the cost for releasing physical versions of Chinese novels, I was referring to the added cost of translating and editing them. Especially since the price of the original Chinese version in paperback appears to be $15...

                                                                                      MotivatedSloth I never expected a serious response from you. That would require logic and knowledge about the subject rather than your constant pissy rants that have almost no substance and are spread over the forum whining about how everyone who doesn't agree with you is a selfish entitled leech.

                                                                                      You should chant the line about being delusional and having a fragile ego back to yourself, kiddo.

                                                                                      There have been far more than 3 over the years, and they all lead to the same point. The price for the chapters is ridiculous. The standard argument against this statement has always been "But the authors and Webnovel need to make money!"
                                                                                      But at the end of the day, you're right about one thing. In the Original novels, it comes down to supporting the author. And if people are willing to pay, then the price is fair to them. However, with so many authors commenting on how they aren't making anything and the fact that Webnovel continually changes the system speaks for itself. Webnovel is either not making enough, or they are too greedy and just constantly looking for more ways to squeeze every single penny out of the few people who do pay. Personally, I lean towards the first option, but the second one is certainly possible. They are quite greedy.
                                                                                      The translated novels are a completely different story though.

                                                                                      First off, I said IF you feel exploited. And if you feel exploited, then I still stand by what I said. It's not the readers who are exploiting you. If someone is here complaining, that means they are following the rules, they just don't like them. People who are reading your stuff for free don't need to come here and complain about it.
                                                                                      Second.Pirates huh, like Webnovel? Who have many people's stolen work posted here. You support this site even though they are pirating, yet you want to complain about other sites that pirate. But I'm the one that's completely wrong. Interesting concept you have there.

                                                                                          lozlo I honestly don't know the truth, just what I was told, so I will not argue with you on the whole Wuxiaworld thing because I really don't have the right or knowledge to comment on the matter (I trust Cantiara, though).

                                                                                          Yeah, each individual volume of coiling Dragon is pretty expensive, and that's before you factor in translation or whatever. The Chinese copy itself is expensive, and compared to it, it seems that each individual Webnovel is cheaper? For $15, you can buy 120 chapters, which is equal to 3-4 volumes if we assume that each volume of Coiling Dragon has 30-40 chapters on average. I guess?

                                                                                          Also, from who I know, writers have no complaints about their earnings. No one is complaining that they earn too little. From the conversations I've seen, they are upset with the readers coming onto the forums and complaining that they want more free stuff, and they are worried this would reduce their earnings, that's all. Webnovel pays a fair amount, and no one is complaining about their income being too little.

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