• Suggestions Diss

  • Flagging/Blacklisting of novels due to usage of emojis/emoticons/kaomoji/symbols

If I may add to my last post, another addition is the support's lack of knowledge how to handle to situation as well as their vague response isn't really helping.

As a support operator, they require to be straight on point without ruining the company image and yet most support operators in any sites does the opposite.

This shows that they lack experience and capability to handle the situation despite knowing the issue. There are ways to deal with these stuff like contacting their superiors or those related in handling the issue concerned but the problem is most people has this pride mentality when working that they don't wanna ask for help from their co-workers. Thinking that they could handle it all by coming up with things.

(I had experience working at this situation and I was the same, in the end of the day I told the supervisor in charge that the job wasn't for me)

We dunno if this is the case for the operators on this site, but we can see that not trying to communicate with their co-workers or not knowing which person to direct the issue to may also have a hand in this scenario.

Back to the being straight on point, the term "as long as it is English letters" is vague cause there are other formats that also use English letters which include letters that can't be found on others and this is exactly what instead solves the problem makes it bigger.

Yes, none of both parties are nerds but as for the operator's side. It is part of their job to atleast know these minor details that would make their job easier to do. It is not required but it is a basic thing that anyone working on something computer related should know regardless if you are in a coding department or not.

Idk what else happens in the background but as for work ethics, this is already a minus for me (although I was the same just for one day and should also be ashamed of myself).

Elinchrom

I never remember writing anything in support of sexist comments. We can agree that we don’t like to read that type of stuff along with other topics that I have seen people complain about in novels. Anything I write will not promote these types of things. However, if this is a website that has translations from Chinese authors, their culture and ideas will be in the book even if I don’t like them.

I’m not “supporting” that, it’s just a fact. The author is the one who gets to choose how he/she talks about these themes not the reader. The reader can only choose to not read (and hopefully not pay for) work from an author that writes things they don’t agree with.

As for the unwritten question of why the program black lists emojis and not sexism, racism, or anything else we agree is not an appropriate topic that we want to promote, how would you write a program for that? Programs follow hard, unbending rules. If you tell the program to blacklist a key word like “sexism” or some vulgar word that is demeaning to women, then it flags that word and nothing else.

In other words, it wouldn’t search for instances of sexism and flag that. Only the word would be flagged. It would also be flagged regardless of how it is used. “Sexism is bad” and “sexism is good” would both get your post/novel blacklisted. Keywords can be tricky because they don’t account for tone and how words are used.

What you are after is more moderators and a working report system. While I agree, this seems like a separate issue. Unless, of course, you have a simple program that you can run to detect sexist undertones in writing? If so, please share your invention with websites like this one.

Back to emojis or pictures adding to the story: I never said they didn’t. My point was that there are ways to use words to convey the same meaning. If you read my post, you will find that I used the analogy of a picture book. Both a picture book and regular text-based book can tell the same story in different ways. If one way doesn’t work, you can still use the other.

To use another analogy, this is like us arguing over if biking or driving a car to work (or school) is better. You say driving is better because it gets you there faster, easier, and With the comfort of air conditioning. None of that is wrong, but I can still say that biking is healthier because it gives you more exercise. Fresh air might also be a benefit to the bike for me. Bottom line is that we both get to where we want to go in a way that we like.

Now, if there is a bicycle race, don’t try to enter with your car! You can argue that the car will complete the course faster, but the people running the race still aren’t going to allow it. Using a car rather than a bike is against the rules of their race. If you want prize money, figure out how to ride the bike.

If you missed it, the bike is a story with only words, and the car is a story with emojis. It’s a crude example, but it demonstrates what I’m trying to say.

    RABBITICOL Syosetu (Japanese Webnovel) is the same, even the Korean and Chinese sites I go to. Technically, Hiatus is a part of every book site's scars of war regarless of what language or country it is from.

    Though, adding the "Hide Inactive/Hiatus/Paused Novel on Listings" check option would be a nice addition. but that would require a lot more coding to add on this site that is already more than complicated as is (don't even mention the app version where most options are only available to).

        Lol’d at both sides of the argument

          I wont take part in the argument, since I have no knowledge on any algorithms and I suck at my customer service job too :'D. I'm here to just give kudos to the author.

          You are doing great in the rankings, although you got your novel whitelisted after half of the contest had gone by. That is a great feat on its own! Good work! :)

          A lot people here seem to totally be missing the point or haven't even bothered to read what the topic is about.

          The OP is saying that ability to use emoji gives value to certain situations. Yet suddenly there are a bunch of people criticizing her "bad writing", pointing out that none of the "real" novels use emoji, and preaching about how using excessive emoji is horrible.

          Do you guys have comprehension issues? If so, it would seem you need to go back to English classes yourself and not the OP. Also, if you want to gain the right to criticize her writing, then you should at least go check out an example of her writing first. I've been reading her novel since early on so I can honestly say that her usage of emojis was really well placed. Yes, I am still greatly enjoying the recent chapters which have no emoji, but I miss them.

          And as a webnovel user who has previously flung my money at webnovel, I am downright furious that they are removing something I, who is paying them, enjoy.

          And treating authors which provide them content to monetize like they are nuisances is downright hilarious and shows how lacking in foresight they are.

          Then there are guys constantly harping about "if you want to write on webnovel, you must conform to the rules of webnovel". And what are those inspoken rules? That discrimination between novels, even if both are not premium, is all fine and well and you should just quietly accept it?

          It's like saying, if you want to live in China you have to obediently accept the censorship that won't let you say bad words, read smut or watch porn, and definitely not try to skirt around it, illegally download it, and especially not fight it. Instead of trying to fight for a better future, you should gtfo of China!

          You guys are ridiculous. At this point I'm not even mad, I pity you.

          shadowdrake27 "In regard to emojis being essential for stories that involve texting or are cute/humorous, I disagree."

          Please point out where in this thread anyone said that emojis are essential.
          And if they aren't essential, does that somehow invalidate the point that having the ability to use them is better than not having it?

          "To me, it doesn’t even restrict your creative expression because of my example above..."
          Are you seriously saying that it doesn't restrict creative freedom while replacing what you initially wanted to say with something else? I don't know what more to say besides that you should try googling the definition of "creative freedom".

          "Heck, I like websites that don’t let authors release works that aren’t finished or meet certain minimum standards."
          Oh, so what you are saying is that every web novel should meet the minimum standards of not using a single emoji otherwise they are trash that shouldn't appear on a webnovel site. Thank you for your opinion. And I hope that you are aware that just because you believe in something it doesn't make it true.

              Elinchrom Thank you.

              Though, I want to point out that not all of my experiences with webnovel staff were bad. I had the pleasure of running into a support staff a few days ago that was simply delightful. Out of around 6 questions I asked, they didn't know the answer to any one of them, but instead of making things up or getting angry, they handled it with such dignity.

              They simply said "Wait a moment please" and went to ask someone who does know the answer.
              And they did it six times. And through the entire time they always returned with the answer and never lost their patience in any way. They didn't feel like their ego was insulted and feel the need to make me look like I am asking something unreasonable so that they can feel better about themselves.

              Left them a five star rating.

              That's what the support staff should be like. It's not a big deal if they don't know something. It is a big deal if they forget that their job is to help their users.

              Speaking of delightful staff, CE also have lovely people. Chloe for example was very nice. Thank you Chloe ❤

                LucyPanDora

                I suppose the actual term was “super important,” but it was implied that texting style couldn’t be communicated without emojis. That is what I disagree with. It may be easier with emojis, but I don’t even think it’s “super important.” Actually, since you are the one that pointed out that believing in something doesn’t make it true, I’ll use that argument here. I totally agree that a persons opinion doesn’t have to be “true” or a “fact.” I think emojis would always take away from serious writing. Just my opinion, I know you disagree.

                Yes, I am saying that your creative freedom isn’t limited by Webnovel. Not only can you convey the same idea using words, you can put the emojis in your story. Sure, you get “blacklisted,” but it’s not like they delete the story or chapter. If this program exists, then getting blacklisted to include emojis is your choice. Therefore, no freedoms have been taken from you. Oh, there are consequences to your decision to use emojis though. To me they are different.

                This site could mandate that everything be written in Chinese. They have that option. If they did that, I would have to leave because I can’t speak or read Chinese. If you want to write I only emojis, check all of the other writing apps/websites that are similar to here.

                Also, this is a blanket rule that applies to everyone. I would be way more sympathetic if your story was being targeted. What you are asking is for them to recode part of (or all of, I don’t know how their code works) their website just so you can use emojis without getting flagged. As someone who does a bit of programming in their profession, my eyes automatically roll at that. Who knows, you could be asking for hours of coding work to be done for free to accommodate your preferences. It might not be as simple as “turn off the emoji blocker button”.

                I didn’t say that not having an emoji should be a standard. If anything, I said using proper grammar should be a standard. My point was that there is no standard for release in terms of writing quality here. I think there should be. It’s something I dislike about this writing website that I have to deal with anytime I open a story written by another user.

                On that note, Webnovel does seem to have this standard in place with an automatic program that flags and blacklists emojis. If that is the case, and for this example let’s say I agree that they should allow emojis, we should probably take our writing ability else where. Especially if they don’t want to change this standard. As the creators of the app they can do what they want. If it’s something you can’t agree with or conform too, there are other options out there.

                I’m not saying that to be mean either, just pointing out that you might be happier if you just delete this app and copy everything you wrote to an app that already allows emojis. Then you wouldn’t have to rely on “them,” you would be taking matters into your own hands.

                    shadowdrake27 "I think emojis would always take away from serious writing."

                    And this here is the main point of why you are so against fixing something that needs to be fixed.

                    Because you personally dislike it. Not because there is an objectively good reason behind it but because of your personal dislike.

                    I personally dislike rosemary. Does that mean that a food recipe site should unlist all recipes that use rosemary as a spice because all recipes with it are trash that don't belong here?
                    And then claim that removing it is justified because you don't HAVE TO use that spice to make a dish taste good. You can use another spice too.

                    Can you not see how ridiculous that sounds?
                    If a food site seriously unlisted and blocked all recipes that used rosemary, it would be the laughing stock of the internet. And you would be on the side defending the absurdity because you personally dislike the spice.

                    "Also, this is a blanket rule that applies to everyone. I would be way more sympathetic if your story was being targeted. "

                    No, no it doesn't. It doesn't apply to premium novels nor novels that were created before a certain period.

                    "I said using proper grammar should be a standard"
                    Woah, now we are talking about proper grammar? You are making some wild assumptions here. What makes you think that usage of emojis and not following proper grammar is related?
                    The way in which you skip from topic to an unrelated topic to justify your views is fascinating.

                    "As the creators of the app they can do what they want."
                    They can, but it doesn't mean that they should.

                    And have they spoken about what it is that they want or don't want? Have we gotten any form of official clarification here?
                    Did they ever claim that it was their intention to ban the usage of emojis?
                    Or that it is their decision to do so that they won't change in the future?

                    No, of course, they haven't said anything.
                    And even if they have said that, why is it wrong for a user to request a feature or fix?

                    First, you advocated limiting my creative freedom, and now you want to limit my freedom of speech?

                        LucyPanDora

                        Lol, your arguments are getting out of control. First of all, you claimed that emojis aren’t necessary. Why does the problem “need” to be fixed? Second, I’m stating that if you don’t have rosemary you can substitute it with Marjoram (or any other spice you like). My argument was never that emojis should be banned. I’m simply saying that if you can’t use them, you have other options. In my opinion, the alternative options you have are better.

                        Also, your spice analogy is ridiculous. Anyone who believes that all recipes with rosemary should be deleted is crazy. I also think that anyone who dislikes rosemary is crazy. However, there are just opinions because I like rosemary. You are welcome to think that they should delete all recipes with rosemary. Again, your example doesn’t like up well with my argument anyway... I just like this spice.

                        Okay, so it applies to every noveL made after X date. You still aren’t being targeted. It’s a general program that runs. If you don’t want to flag it, avoid characters known to trigger it. We can agree that a post that describes what symbols are allowed vs not allowed would be helpful. However, would you follow it if there was one? Or would you just add that to the list of things that you hate about Webnovel?

                        Wait, I said emojis were bad grammar? Don’t remember that... Actually, I’m not sure that grammar applies to pictures (I’m considering emojis little pictures here). If you want to make me out as a villain, just point out the fact that I stated that every novel on this website has bad grammar. Obviously, there are some that don’t, but most of them that I have seen do. You made this jump not me.

                        Again, for the third time, I was just pointing out something that I personally dislike about the app. I sort of want to make a thread claiming that I can’t continue to write unless a grammar standard is added for released chapters. Sure, this would delay releases until someone could spot check them, or worse, run every story through an automated grammar checker. It would make me happy though! Muhahahaha

                        I agree with you here. They shouldn’t do whatever they want, but they can. I’m just saying that if you complained, and they didn’t listen, couldn’t you find a site that will? There are so many... why get angry about this? I only am here because I can write crappy, half-baked ideas On my phone for fun.

                        Lastly, I haven’t advocated for you to lose anything. You can complain, but it might not get you anywhere. My suggestion is to say the same thing in a slightly different way. No lose of meaning or quality would happen. Actually, your preferences are generating all of this (not mine, even though mine are different). That isn’t even bad, I’m just not sure it warrants a “problem that needs to be fixed”.

                        Do what you want, and if they won’t change the website for you (which it sounds like they won’t), take your story elsewhere...

                        I’m sure you won’t like something I said. In lieu of another response, I’ll cover some basics.

                        • I’m not sexist (someone made this argument previously?)
                        • I’m not trying to limit what you are writing, but sounds like emojis have consequences you don’t like on Webnovel.
                        • asking a big company to change their preset programs for free might Not work. Contracted authors make them money, so the company will listen to them more. That may not be right or good, but it is how things appear to be working here. In fact, you might find a lot of companies to operate this way.

                            shadowdrake27 Yes, I am saying that your creative freedom isn’t limited by Webnovel. Not only can you convey the same idea using words, you can put the emojis in your story. Sure, you get “blacklisted,” but it’s not like they delete the story or chapter.

                            I can't say how it is now but when I was still posting my system novel this was not true. I was unable to post chapters that included kaomoji. It would just get blocked and couldn't be released without any notification prior.
                            And for your information, because this somehow seems to have become relevant in this post: This was a series set in contemporary times in which I used kaomoji only in the context of text messages and online posts where they would be expected to be found in real life. So they were an essential part of the story. Yes, the kaomoji are also part of the paperback version of the series. Essential, as I said.

                            Now, in regards to the overall issue, @LucyPanDora: Just give up. I feel you since I was in the same position but honestly, I already made the suggestion to publish a list with the allowed or the forbidden characters back when I stumbled upon this problem. That seemed to be the easiest solution since it wouldn't even require them to change any code or whatever. I mean it's just giving out a tidbit of information that could solve them some future troubles, right? The amount of time needed for that would probably be below an hour and they could answer questions like yours with just a link to that list.
                            But guess what? My series has ended about a year ago. So after more than one year, they haven't worked on the issue at all despite being badgered about it by several authors. That tells us that webnovel couldn't care less about this and won't do anything about it no matter how small. You're embroiled in a lost fight here.

                            Edit: An alternative (which I used back then) is to exchange any kaomoji you'd use for something the website doesn't flag (I used '~' back then for each character of the kaomoji), explain the situation in your author's note, and give them an alternative where they can read everything including the kaomoji, like your website or something.

                              I would like to provide my own opinion if I may. Honestly, I've been seeing @LucyPanDora complaining about this since I joined WPC#125. Albeit indirectly, she made me aware that using emoticons and special characters will get your novel blacklisted. if it wasn't for her raising this issue, I would have carelessly done the same thing since some scenes of my novel includes chatting. I would like to thank her for that through this comment.

                              It's truly disappointing that WN's system limits an author's creativity of not being able to use emoticons and symbols not on the standard english keyboard when they're needed. It honestly irks me that I have to write fiance instead of fiancé, saute instead of sauté, etc. in fear of getting my novel blacklisted because of it.

                              But I'd rather not dwell on things I cannot do or not allowed to do. I decided to just put words in brackets in place of emojis like [laughing emoji], [angry emoji], [middle finger emoji], and so on. This alternative may seem off-putting to some, but I'd say "To hell with it! It's not the end of the world if I can't use actual emojis."

                              Really, it's not worth the stress. I'd rather focus my braincells developing my plot and most especially, my characters because I'm a character-driven type story-teller. That's just my two cents on this topic with all due respect. :)

                              Tbh, I find emoticons in stories highly annoying distracting from the story itself. That said, you can always self publish if webnovel ain't working out for you or go the donations route like so many others.

                              The difference is that you can easily be found here by the webnovel based readers.

                              I'm an avid reader myself, and I mostly just bother with original stories that are published on paperback or in audiobook format due to quality concerns.

                              So I haven't actually bothered to look at things published in a gradual release after realising the pay wall is usually higher than purchasing a published book by a renowned author...

                              But that doesn't mean others won't.

                              As for why I'm still on wn? Fanfics.

                                Hatake_Shirou

                                Yep, WN quality being all over the board is a "feature." Honestly, there are a lot of hidden gems that don't get advertised at all. That's because they are completely free and WN has no incentive to do so. With a little digging and various 'free novel' forum posts, you could find some good originals that may be even better than the paid stuff.

                                    kazesenken got any recommendations?

                                    (Especially if they decided to self publish)

                                    My favorite genres are Fantasy, Sci-fi, System/game elements and action.

                                        Hatake_Shirou

                                        I don't read much, so I can only suggest my novels to you which fit the fantasy, game elements, and action criteria. They will always be free. You can search for my name if you are interested.

                                        Otherwise, if you put up a "free novels" suggestions as a forum thread, I'm sure you'll be bombarded with more suggestions than you know what to do with.

                                          10 days later

                                          Since I was unable to get reply from anyone at Webnovel about what characters are allowed in novels and what not, and since the whole thing about blacklisting and whitelisting is full of wrong information on the forum. I ran a test on my own over the last few weeks. I created a dummy novel, and tested out character by character.

                                          This post sums up all my previous experience with the flagging algorithm for future generations:

                                          It turned out, that the flagging algorithm was, as one would expect, done in a haste in the most simple way. When you save or publish a chapter, it runs on that chapter and if it finds any of the symbols that are not allowed, it flaggs the novel. When you contact the staff, they "whitelist" your novel, but if you update one of the problematic chapters or publish another chapter that contains symbols that are not allowed, you will get flagged again.

                                          They had problems with Korean spam? Then block Korean symbols. Any other symbols? Don't give a sh*t. I have yet to try out Chinese symbols, but pretty much everything used in Kaomoji works fine, even Japanese katakana. Even regular emoji work fine. Greek, ♪, ☆, ♡, ☞, ★, ☆, 👍, 🤔, 😈, 😱, é - all fine.

                                          For future generations, you can find the flagging test novel here: https://www.webnovel.com/book/17346641606601205/Testing-the-Flagging-Algorithm

                                          And treat whatever webnovel staff tells you with a good dose of salt because they probably don't know either. Expect them to contradict one another, and even contradict themselves. In fact, while searching this topic on the forum, there wasn't a single response from webnovel staff that was actually correct from my experience. From constantly mentioning the mythical permanent whitelist, to mentioning that all non-English characters and emojis are banned... etc. I really don't know what to say... I don't think I've ever seen a platform with so much misinformation.

                                          How can a company which has so many employees not have a single person that would maintain some kind of wiki/user guide/ knowledge base?

                                          P.S. Over the past weeks I've asked many questions about a lot of things related to Inkstone that have no proper explanations anywhere. Customer support directed me, every time, to ask those questions to content editors, so it would appear that content editors ARE supposed to be the support staff for the Inkstone, it would just seem that no one told that information to the poor content editors. Which is kinda strange, because that annoying zendesk chat popup that constantly activates when I am just peacefully trying to use Inkstone clearly says: "Welcome! I'm your assigned Content Editor. How may I assist you?"

                                          I'm getting some mixed messages here. Inkstone and the user support staff apparently thinks that content editors should be assisting authors in some way. But people on the forum say that it isn't their job to do so. And from my experience over the past weeks (besides two exceptions), they didn't assist me at all in any way. Out of several inquiries I've made over the past weeks relating to various things, I have yet to receive a single response from them.

                                          It would seem that if you don't chat in real-time with them, they ignore everything else that has been sent on zendesk.

                                          To be clear, I didn't ask anything outrageous. I simply asked things like:
                                          What does the 'Reads' number really mean? Is 1 read = 1 reader? Is 1 read = 1 reading session?
                                          If your new reader retention is 30% for the first day, what does that mean? What counts as a first day? The day the readers started reading, or does it start counting from the next day? Because if it counts day 0 as the first day, then what does it mean that reader retention is 30%? That 30% of the new people who started to read continued reading that same day?

                                          None of these things are explained anywhere. And it would seem that there isn't a single person from Webnovel, that has the time or enough knowledge to answer such questions. Even if you wait weeks for the answer.

                                          And yes, some of you will again raise the issue saying "poor content editors", "They are overworked", "they have better things to do", etc. And all of that might be true. But so what? Does that mean that it isn't ok for me to ask reasonable questions? And does that mean that it is perfectly fine for me to never receive an answer?

                                          Also, since many of you have constantly been saying that content editors have better things to do, can someone even explain to me what is it that they do? So that I will know what kind of things I should even contact them about?

                                          From their name, I would assume they edit content? But I've never actually seen a premium novel with proper editing, so surely it can't be that they actually fix grammar mistakes and the like. Then, the content editing should mean they run writing contests, and decide what novel gets featured when? But if so, why would I ever need to contact them and why would that zendesk annoying popup keep popping up?

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