• Diss

  • Anyone else dislikes the majority of current harem novels? Cause I do.

It's not the matter of realism. I don't think the lack of realism is the problem - in fact, harems are realistic. Look at the Middle East, or even in history. Nobles had concubines. Sultans have harems of women. Comparing harems to fantasy or flying pigs or magic is just absurd because harems actually do exist in reality. So if you think the issue people have with harems is "lack of realism", you're sorely mistaken.

The problem with harem is the sort of values inherent within it. I wouldn't go so far as to say it "promotes" them, but it seems to naturalize the attitude that women are objects or trophies to be added into a man's collection. The harem genre treats women (or men as the case may be, depending on who the protagonist and gender) as objects and with no respect at all. Like these characters exist simply to love the main character. It's degrading and insulting to the poor characters. It's not the matter of realism, but rather the degrading depiction of men/women. Most of all, it's simply poorly written and horribly executed. Women fall for a single guy for no reason other than because he's nice?

By the way, the affair path is considered harem. Harem simply refers to any or all stories where the protagonst has multiple relationships with members of the opposite sex (or same sex, depending on the genre). The affair path is yet another reason why people hate harems. Because the protagonist is, quite simply, a scum. Harem doesn't necessarily mean the main character ends up with multiple women by the end of the story. There's a reason why manga like Nisekoi are considered harem. The harem genre simply refers to a story where a single person is surrounded by multiple (usually 3 or more, 2 is just love triangles and drama, and isn't considered harem) characters who are romantically in love with him/her. Whether he/she ends up with only one of them is irrelevant.

Now if you have a series like Kimi no Iru Machi, that's not exactly harem because it's not like there are multiple women in love with Haruto at once, unlike in Nisekoi where you have 4 or more heroines competing for Raku's affections. But Kimi no Iru Machi is not an affair story either - just because Haruto dates Asuka before getting back with Yuzuki doesn't mean he had an affair. It's a realistic portrayal of life where normal people (unlike harem protagonists) have several relationships throughout their life. Most people will form relationships, break up, and then date another person again. That's not an affair. However, the affair that SecretWolf mentions is precisely the tripe produced out of harem novels where all the women in the story want to sleep with the male protagonist because he...I don't know. Sometimes he's not even a chad but just an indecisive scum who goes with the flow. Yet they are all attracted to him for some reason. Another example of poor execution. It's not realism, but if the readers can't be convinced that the girls like the guy according to the rules established by the world in that story, then they will find the whole thing ridiculous.

Now, will men who read harem novels suddenly turn into cheating tyrants who abuse women or cruelly lead them on? I hope not. Such a claim is as dumb as nonsensical claims about gamers being more prone to murdering people with guns just because they play shooters. Or increase in violence just because people watch action movies. However, when you start seeing readers' comments where they call women "sluts" for not being virgins (and thus have no right to be part of the harem) or accusing men of being "simps" just because they respect women and accede to their requests, you get the feeling that there is some sort of negative influence at play here. As in, the normalization of insidious attitudes that are far subtler than "he's going to become a murderer because he plays Call of Duty!"

    Tomoyuki Thanks I can see where you are coming from and I understand your points.

    When you look at it through such lense, it indeed does not paint a pretty picture. But there is also more at play here.
    Then shouldn't we also consider the fact that violence is also normalized here and similarly affects people? similar comments if MC lets an enemy survive. (calling him coward, stupid etc.)

    Other ideas such as
    - dangerous adventures always bear fruits
    - Mc is always right
    - how morality is twisted for many of MC's actions
    - Idea of perfect love (finding perfect fairy's no problem with them or their relationships)

    And romance stories, how one of them only lives for the other one and the idea of such sacrifice as a test for love.

    The reality is everything is exaggerated and all stories have more things wrong with them then right. Does objectification happen only in Harem? No - most stories objectify either gender based on the MC's gender and genre.

    What about the objectification of life, from killing 1 to millions of people are accepted as long as the MC has a reason? so then shouldn't we also hate Action for this reason?

    Honestly going by the comments any action of MC will be met by someone's hate because it does not make sense to them. Again comment such as the "Slut" etc. has nothing to do with the genre, but the people's opinion or the authors choice in plot and should not be a reason to judge a genre by it. If the setting is the olden times where virginity was important, then like you said people will judge it based on that. Is it wrong yes, but is it wrong in that setting, time and the world then only the author and plot can tell you that.

    What I do agree with is that characters are poorly written at times and it takes away from the story as the reason for people to follow MC is simply that he/she is MC. I would not care about the number of harem members as long it suits the plot, setting, world and laws of the story. Is many members going to take away from deep character development that happens with a few of them? Yes. But I am not simply going to hate it for that. like you pointed out, harem has happened in the past and is happening currently, so I don't think there is a reason to fault it in a fantasy story when the setting, time and plot matches it.

    I think when we turn a blind eye to so many other problems of killing, flying, magic etc. Harem should not be the only areas you shine a light at. Either put it everywhere or don't bother. If an author puts non virgin person and someone calls the member "slut" and you don't encourage the author for making it realistic then you are just encouraging him to continue on that path and make his story how the people want. All he has to do is add an extra sentence to make the change.

    Don't blame all the problems on Harem, because there are good ones and bad ones like every other genre and if you are going to not read it just because then you are letting those that read it define its direction. Harem has bases in real life so it should be more acceptable than other genres and the fact that only one side has a major say in it, it is in its current form that people have an aversion towards.

    My problem is with people that say, "I hate harem and will never read it," Then why should it have all the things that you want when you are not planning to read it. If you are not willing to read it why should any Author care about your opinion?

    My personal opinion is, it is Fantasy accept the direction it is going, and judge it based on the setting. If it matches the setting then the author is doing what he/she promised. If there is a huge mismatch then pointed it out, but you can't judge the relationship based on this world's standards while accepting their immortal lives/magic and other fantasy elements,

        Actually, I agree with you. Perhaps it's because I'm from the Japanese school of manga and anime, but I really hate all these stories that promote killing, ruthlessness, etc.

        SecretWolf Other ideas such as
        - dangerous adventures always bear fruits
        - Mc is always right
        - how morality is twisted for many of MC's actions
        - Idea of perfect love (finding perfect fairy's no problem with them or their relationships)

        These are what I hate about many of the Chinese-styled stories too. Tales of Demons and Gods, in particular, where Nie Li is always right because he is the protagonist. It doesn't matter if he does something that I - and normal people - would condemn (such as humiliating and bullying one of the heroines' father), he is right because the author says he is right. And I hate that sort of nonsense.

        It gets so bad that whenever I write a story, readers complain and flame my protagonist for being "stupid" or "spineless" or "retarded" because he doesn't kill an enemy. Like, what the f? I find it disturbing that so many readers are bloodthirsty and calling for psychopathic protagonists like Chen Bei Xuan. They want all protagonists to be like Chen Bei Xuan, who kills all four generations of a family who attacked him, and doesn't hesitate to kill people for insulting/offending him. Just a single verbal insult and he kills them. Like, seriously? That's the sort of protagonists people want? And if my protagonist doesn't do that, you're going to flame my story and characters?

        It is also why I hate cultivation stories. You hit the nail on the head - the objectification and casual dismissal of life. Maybe I'm used to Japanese light novel stories (with a lot of exceptions, like the revenge stories) where the protagonists are "pacifists" who don't kill unless absolutely necessary, but I find it disturbing that most characters are treated as caricatures. They exist solely to attack and try to kill the protagonist, just so he has an excuse to murder them. The execution of such stories is just...terrible. 9 out of 10 times, the male character who shows up is a violent, greedy, psychopathic, muderous rapist who is either jealous of the protagonist or desires his lover, and does all sort of nonsense to kill him. And then the author or characters would justify it as "survival of the fittest" or "strong eat the weak", never mind that sort of mentality makes no sense. Oh, as for female characters, they only exist to be added to the protagonist's harem. I think it's kind of disgusting.

        I don't turn a blind eye to killing and poor execution or poor writing. Also, again, I don't know why you are comparing harem and killing/violence to magic/flying. They are two completely different things. Nobody is being objectified just because the characters use magic or can fly. Characters aren't two-dimensional if they can fly or use magic. However, if they exist just to kill and get killed (caricatural villains) or just as trophies to be added to a harem, then yeah, I think there's a problem.

        SecretWolf Harem has bases in real life so it should be more acceptable than other genres

        This is not about acceptable or unacceptable. I don't even understand why it should be more acceptable than other genres...just because it has a basis in reality? That makes no sense at all. Why are you even comparing it to other genres in the first place? Other genres get similar hate too. Some people never read sci-fi because they find it boring and they can't stand all the pseudo-scientific jargon. Some people neve read fantasy because it's, as you say, unrealistic, and they prefer crime novels, for example. But that's not the point here. The thread is asking why people hate harem stories, not why it's less/more acceptable than other genres. It's meaningless to compare because each genre has its supporters and detractors. It's like saying, "you like apples, why can't you like oranges as well?"

        Also, the problem is not

        SecretWolf accepting their immortal lives/magic and other fantasy elements,

        The problem is the way harem stories are executed, the way writers objectify women (or men in otome stories), and the degrading depiction of characters. It's not about belief or acceptance or whatever. Of course some are executed better than others. I like Gotoubun no Hanayome, for example. It's an example of how to write a harem manga without degrading the characters - each of the sisters has their own charms and can live on without the protagonist, Fuutarou, without throwing away her self-respect. They aren't desperate, mindless heroines who exist solely to cater to the protagonist, each of them has their own goals, dreams and lives.

        Again, the topic isn't about how "harem" as a genre is problematic, but why people dislike the majority of current harem novels. And it's not because of the genre itself but the way these writers execute it.

                Tomoyuki Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that there is a problem with how everything is portrayed in some of these novels. To put it simply I am just saying to just treat it as fantasy, take Game of Thrones as an example it has genres and things that degrades people, characters, things, occupations etc, but it is considered a fantasy work and treated as such.

                Tomoyuki Again, the topic isn't about how "harem" as a genre is problematic, but why people dislike the majority of current harem novels. And it's not because of the genre itself but the way these writers execute it.

                I can see that you have an understanding of Harem and is not just avoiding the genre just because, but criticizing some of its aspects. But some comments above is about "harem" as a genre being problematic. My point is that it has its gems. I am sure, if you read the comments in a thread you will see the reason for some of my points.

                If anything I am all for better books and improvements in novels.

                      SecretWolf yeah you see the thing is those things make a story good harems just ruin everything it's either shit writing with horrible character building or just a shitty story overall I ain't saying a story has to have monogamy I'm just saying that its a shitty thing to put in a book and you can tell

                        I don't care what the opinions or morality of something is I just care about the quality of the writing and harem has so many bad writing habits attached to it that it is poisonous

                        Well, for my opinion is ; I like harem. But good harem. And there are alot of harem story that is bad and I dont like them. Since to found good harem that I like, we have to read more harem story so that I could get some harem story that is good and I like them. 🥰

                        SecretWolf To put it simply I am just saying to just treat it as fantasy

                        I'm trying to explain that you can't "simply treat it as fantasy." It's like pretending apples are oranges. "If you like apples, why can't you like oranges? Just treat the oranges like apples." It doesn't work that way.

                        As for Game of Thrones, it doesn't degrade people, characters, things and occupations. What it does is present how terrible things are, it doesn't romanticize them like the cultivation or harem or CEO stories. It's okay to write about rape, but you need to handle it properly and depict the horrors that the victim suffers, not hand-wave it away and have her fall for the CEO who raped her just because he's rich and handsome. Game of Thrones doesn't do that. It hits you with "hey, look, this is horrible as f." You are horrified when people die, when your favorite characters get killed off. It's not like cultivation novels where the protagonist just straight-up kills people who provokes him and readers love it. They are horrified by the violence, not admire it. That's why people like it. I don't get your obsession with "fantasy" - that's not the point here. If people dislike Game of Thrones, it's because of the excessive violence and brutality in the series, and not because it's "fantasy."

                        You really have to stop comparing apples with oranges. You can't just say, "if you like fantasy, you should like harem too." That's not how it works, they are two completely different things.

                            Tomoyuki
                            Mate, you are all over the place.
                            You talk about morals one second but defend GoT's logic as ok while the novels not. You can either say is it is morally bad or not. Then you go on saying it is to evoke emotions in GoT so it is fine and they are remorseful. He pushes a kid no remorse..etc. You only cared about the main character while the other deaths and normal people that died in GoT, no one cared. Any novel in here that keeps killing people close to MC will get a similar response. I don't remember any of the main characters being horrified of violence each one takes that path and quite easily and happily. They marched and killed for 'honour' no difference then here. If the consider someone enemy they kill. Same logic. Most novel here someone close to them get killed they kill back. What is the difference?
                            Why are you bring rape and CEO again... different tags?
                            This apples and oranges... I just said that harem is fine as long as the Author and setting permit it and explains it, similar to GoT. There is no Apples and Oranges.... its a fruit basket and you are claiming to throw away the fruit basket because you dislike apples.

                                SecretWolf Because rape happened in Game of Thrones, and I'm explaining how the two stories handle it differently.

                                Game of Throne's logic is not about promoting immorality, but showcasing just how horrifying lack of morals is. Whereas in cultivation novels, they seem to promote violence and ruthlessness. In Game of Thrones, when you saw the scene where they kill the kid, you feel horrified. You feel rage. You're supposed to be shocked and appalled at the brutality meted out to a child - it's that kind of story. It's how it was executed. You're not supposed to enjoy the violence, you're supposed to be horrified by it and hope that it will all end eventually. Or that the protagonist overcomes it without turning into a monster himself.

                                Whereas in cultivation stories, the protagonist will slaugher all the children in the sect that provoked him, and readers will just laugh and say, "they deserve it." No one is horrified...because the story is executed in a way that even children deserve to die (I don't know, maybe the children abused and insulted the protagonist). It's just bloody cavalier and disgusting.

                                That's the morals I'm talking about here. The way they execute their treatment of violence. It is okay to write about violence. It is NOT okay to romanticize and promote violence as the solution. It's all right to write about beautiful women falling for a guy. It's NOT all right to degrade them into flat characters who exist solely to pander to the protagonist.

                                And what fruit basket? If you don't like oranges, should I force you to like them because you love apples? That makes no sense. No one says harem is not fine. People are explaining why they dislike harem and you appear to insist that they should give it a chance, that they should like it. Why? If you don't like durians, how would you feel if I force you to eat it by claiming that it's a fruit basket and that if you like apples, you should like durians too? Your logic doesn't make any sense. No one is saying harem stories shouldn't exist, but you are here trying to convince people who don't like it to like it because they like other kinds of stories.

                                You're basically saying, "if you like fantasy, then you must give harem a chance too!" No, that's not how it works. Just because I like sci-fi doesn't mean I must give thrillers a chance. They are two different genres, and I like what I like and I dislike what I dislike.

                                    Personally i really like harem settings so let me explain why before you flame :x

                                    I overall really enjoy romance stories. But i am just really really bad with sad stuff. Sadly in many normal romance stories that got quite long there are other girls that have feelings for the mc as well (lot less likely if its female lead tho) and i always felt terrible for them :/
                                    So at some point i started to prefer stories were every girl cool be happy together with the mc.

                                    But i also understand why many ppl dislike harem settings. Beside ppl like the thread owner, there are many who have actually good reasons; E.g. lag of reasoning, sacrificing good romance for harem plot etc. And i totally agree with that. I am really frustrated that many harem stories are only about a guy collecting girls like objects and thats it, often also overloaded with sex. And yeah, i really dislike this side of harem settings.
                                    But at the end (for me personally) its a lot more important that every girl can have a happyend with the mc. And there ARE actually really cute harem settings. Often it gets really interesting if the male is not the only "reason" for everything. If the girls getting more attention and depth and care not only for the mc but also for each other... it can be really fluffy and especially those stories are really fun to read (in my opinion).

                                    But again, in general i'm just terrible with sad stuff and harem settings are a great way to get a happyend for everyone.
                                    And at the end, there are so many romance stories, just read what you enjoy =D

                                    edit:
                                    1. In general i am quite open for all kind of romance settings. I am fine with yuri and yaoi, i often cheer for the "sister characters" in animes to end up with "onii-chan" etc. So maybe thats why i also don't care about harem settings.
                                    2. There are mainly two "reasoning" for a harem setup; Super alpha mc who just want all the girls and they just accept it somehow. And settings were the girls really not only care for the mc but also for each other (sometimes with borderline yuri) and it feels more like a family. Ofc there are mixed forms and other reasons, but those two main settings are quite common and as i said above, the second setting can be really cute and fluffy and i really enjoy those =D

                                      Tomoyuki
                                      Sigh, I am totally agreeing with you, but you keep bringing points to make it seem like I am fighting you.
                                      My point is if the story meets 9/10 criteria and you are on the fence about harem give it a try because it can be good at times.
                                      Forcing no one.
                                      You are tieing other tags/genres to the discussion about harem to make your point.

                                      I am out -

                                      Here is the torch carry on friend - good luck Nebel
                                      Ps, I totally agree with you Nebel, that is also the reason for my interest in Harem.

                                            SecretWolf noooo!! Take the torch back! xD

                                            na, for real i won't write much here :x i know that some have good reasons to dislike harems, some only have read "bad" harems and transferring that experience to the genre in general, and then there are some who just think its immoral and dislike it without discussion. Btw. often that is also going along with disliking yuri/yaoi and stuff like that. You can't really talk with those ppl i guess. I mean, in RL we still struggle to give same-sex marriage the same rights as others...

                                            I just stated my opinion and maybe someone who just had a bad experience with one harem novel is willing to give the genre another chance

                                            edit (again): btw. some also actually have realistic moral worries about harems, like female abuse etc. and thats actually valid. I personally don't mind incest in novels (as mentioned before, i even like sister-characters) but in RL there is a good reason why its immoral. And mainly not because of genetics, but just because young girls could be forced to stuff... arg, don't really want to talk about it, its super sad. But again 1. novel is fiction and 2. in a perfect setting with everyone being happy with it... why should anyone complain as long as they are happy =D

                                              Let me tell you this. IS you mother or father in harem. IF not remove this godly shit. Harem is shit dont listen to these pervy, many wife supportors. It is cancer and ruin all book. you see good man tell of rape and incest, with half animals in those books. Donot read, make your mind stupid.

                                                4liyingyue That’s the M O O D, lmfaooo

                                                Edit: ( I can read books with harem in it just for the plot but that doesn’t mean I will enjoy it... RIP).
                                                Really, I’m just here to read the arguments and everyone’s point of view about this subject.
                                                Everyone’s arguements are nice to read and they make me think about harem in a completely different way. But in the end, there are people who enjoy harem and people who don’t (hence why there is literally a dissing discussion about this, lol)

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