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KoraL I can't imagine it. I'm not even sure what beta female lead means or why anyone would call them beta because of second male lead syndrome. Acually, what does second male lead syndrome even mean? Does it mean the second male lead is a simp for chasing after the female main character even though she's clearly in love with the first male lead? Or is it a syndrome where the second male lead always gets rejected even though he's much better than the male lead (first of all, he's not abusive, he doesn't ignore her, and he always helps her whenever she needs it)? Or are readers complaining that the female protagonist is a beta because she refuses to have a harem of rich, handsome men and insists on choosing only one to be her lover? Which makes no sense, because no self-respecting man would ever settle for being part of a harem belonging to what is supposedly an ordinary girl - especially if he's a rich, powerful, handsome CEO who can have any woman he wants. Similarly, one of the things I hate most about harems is how the heroines never respect themselves and denigrate themselves by sharing one man (like, who does that? Have more self-respect, ladies - you deserve better).

But yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if male readers go in there and call the second male lead a simp.

This definition

Tomoyuki Or is it a syndrome where the second male lead always gets rejected even though he's much better than the male lead (first of all, he's not abusive, he doesn't ignore her, and he always helps her whenever she needs it)?

This interpretation

Tomoyuki Or are readers complaining that the female protagonist is a beta because she refuses to have a harem of rich, handsome men and insists on choosing only one to be her lover?

Tomoyuki Which makes no sense, because no self-respecting man would ever settle for being part of a harem

Right! So why exactly should females always have to be the ones with no self-respect!
How did it even get to the point of monogamy being unmasculine while being the only acceptable standard for females?

But to be fair, it always feels like harem stories always have brainless heroines. Or some unexplained skewed gender ratio. Actually most of the time the only character with more than half a brain cell ends up being the MC. Maybe that's why all the girls are with him.

KoraL Agreed. In harem stories, the girls behave as if the protagonist is the only guy in the world, and it's disturbing. I wish they would have more self-respect. If a girl has been taken, I'm not going to try to steal her from her boyfriend or husband (force her to break up/divorce just like all those nonsensical son-in-law stories). Like, the sea is so vast, there are so many other fishes, or don't overlook a forest for a single tree. Similarly, girls should just look for other guys who treat them better rather than be obsessed with this single dude who...I don't even know why they are so madly in love with him. It's as if he's the only guy in the world who's nice to them (really?).

Most of these guys in son-in-law stories are rich and handsome enough that they can get any girl they want, but they are obsessed over...the protagonist's wife for no reason other than so he has an excuse to beat them up when they lay their hands on his wife, even though in reality no man will lack that much self-respect to go after another guy's wife in such a stupid manner. Similarly, most of these girls are cute/beautiful/talented enough to have any guy they want, so I don't understand why they're obsessed with a plain, often indecisive and unremarkable guy just because he's...nice to them. Or why they are willing to share him - these girls are smart enough to understand their own worth - they can pick any guy who would be willing to devote his life to her alone, but no, they decide to swarm over a single guy and "share" him because...I dunno, it's the ultimate wet dream for the protagonist.

It's not the matter of realism. I don't think the lack of realism is the problem - in fact, harems are realistic. Look at the Middle East, or even in history. Nobles had concubines. Sultans have harems of women. Comparing harems to fantasy or flying pigs or magic is just absurd because harems actually do exist in reality. So if you think the issue people have with harems is "lack of realism", you're sorely mistaken.

The problem with harem is the sort of values inherent within it. I wouldn't go so far as to say it "promotes" them, but it seems to naturalize the attitude that women are objects or trophies to be added into a man's collection. The harem genre treats women (or men as the case may be, depending on who the protagonist and gender) as objects and with no respect at all. Like these characters exist simply to love the main character. It's degrading and insulting to the poor characters. It's not the matter of realism, but rather the degrading depiction of men/women. Most of all, it's simply poorly written and horribly executed. Women fall for a single guy for no reason other than because he's nice?

By the way, the affair path is considered harem. Harem simply refers to any or all stories where the protagonst has multiple relationships with members of the opposite sex (or same sex, depending on the genre). The affair path is yet another reason why people hate harems. Because the protagonist is, quite simply, a scum. Harem doesn't necessarily mean the main character ends up with multiple women by the end of the story. There's a reason why manga like Nisekoi are considered harem. The harem genre simply refers to a story where a single person is surrounded by multiple (usually 3 or more, 2 is just love triangles and drama, and isn't considered harem) characters who are romantically in love with him/her. Whether he/she ends up with only one of them is irrelevant.

Now if you have a series like Kimi no Iru Machi, that's not exactly harem because it's not like there are multiple women in love with Haruto at once, unlike in Nisekoi where you have 4 or more heroines competing for Raku's affections. But Kimi no Iru Machi is not an affair story either - just because Haruto dates Asuka before getting back with Yuzuki doesn't mean he had an affair. It's a realistic portrayal of life where normal people (unlike harem protagonists) have several relationships throughout their life. Most people will form relationships, break up, and then date another person again. That's not an affair. However, the affair that SecretWolf mentions is precisely the tripe produced out of harem novels where all the women in the story want to sleep with the male protagonist because he...I don't know. Sometimes he's not even a chad but just an indecisive scum who goes with the flow. Yet they are all attracted to him for some reason. Another example of poor execution. It's not realism, but if the readers can't be convinced that the girls like the guy according to the rules established by the world in that story, then they will find the whole thing ridiculous.

Now, will men who read harem novels suddenly turn into cheating tyrants who abuse women or cruelly lead them on? I hope not. Such a claim is as dumb as nonsensical claims about gamers being more prone to murdering people with guns just because they play shooters. Or increase in violence just because people watch action movies. However, when you start seeing readers' comments where they call women "sluts" for not being virgins (and thus have no right to be part of the harem) or accusing men of being "simps" just because they respect women and accede to their requests, you get the feeling that there is some sort of negative influence at play here. As in, the normalization of insidious attitudes that are far subtler than "he's going to become a murderer because he plays Call of Duty!"

Actually, I agree with you. Perhaps it's because I'm from the Japanese school of manga and anime, but I really hate all these stories that promote killing, ruthlessness, etc.

SecretWolf Other ideas such as
- dangerous adventures always bear fruits
- Mc is always right
- how morality is twisted for many of MC's actions
- Idea of perfect love (finding perfect fairy's no problem with them or their relationships)

These are what I hate about many of the Chinese-styled stories too. Tales of Demons and Gods, in particular, where Nie Li is always right because he is the protagonist. It doesn't matter if he does something that I - and normal people - would condemn (such as humiliating and bullying one of the heroines' father), he is right because the author says he is right. And I hate that sort of nonsense.

It gets so bad that whenever I write a story, readers complain and flame my protagonist for being "stupid" or "spineless" or "retarded" because he doesn't kill an enemy. Like, what the f? I find it disturbing that so many readers are bloodthirsty and calling for psychopathic protagonists like Chen Bei Xuan. They want all protagonists to be like Chen Bei Xuan, who kills all four generations of a family who attacked him, and doesn't hesitate to kill people for insulting/offending him. Just a single verbal insult and he kills them. Like, seriously? That's the sort of protagonists people want? And if my protagonist doesn't do that, you're going to flame my story and characters?

It is also why I hate cultivation stories. You hit the nail on the head - the objectification and casual dismissal of life. Maybe I'm used to Japanese light novel stories (with a lot of exceptions, like the revenge stories) where the protagonists are "pacifists" who don't kill unless absolutely necessary, but I find it disturbing that most characters are treated as caricatures. They exist solely to attack and try to kill the protagonist, just so he has an excuse to murder them. The execution of such stories is just...terrible. 9 out of 10 times, the male character who shows up is a violent, greedy, psychopathic, muderous rapist who is either jealous of the protagonist or desires his lover, and does all sort of nonsense to kill him. And then the author or characters would justify it as "survival of the fittest" or "strong eat the weak", never mind that sort of mentality makes no sense. Oh, as for female characters, they only exist to be added to the protagonist's harem. I think it's kind of disgusting.

I don't turn a blind eye to killing and poor execution or poor writing. Also, again, I don't know why you are comparing harem and killing/violence to magic/flying. They are two completely different things. Nobody is being objectified just because the characters use magic or can fly. Characters aren't two-dimensional if they can fly or use magic. However, if they exist just to kill and get killed (caricatural villains) or just as trophies to be added to a harem, then yeah, I think there's a problem.

SecretWolf Harem has bases in real life so it should be more acceptable than other genres

This is not about acceptable or unacceptable. I don't even understand why it should be more acceptable than other genres...just because it has a basis in reality? That makes no sense at all. Why are you even comparing it to other genres in the first place? Other genres get similar hate too. Some people never read sci-fi because they find it boring and they can't stand all the pseudo-scientific jargon. Some people neve read fantasy because it's, as you say, unrealistic, and they prefer crime novels, for example. But that's not the point here. The thread is asking why people hate harem stories, not why it's less/more acceptable than other genres. It's meaningless to compare because each genre has its supporters and detractors. It's like saying, "you like apples, why can't you like oranges as well?"

Also, the problem is not

SecretWolf accepting their immortal lives/magic and other fantasy elements,

The problem is the way harem stories are executed, the way writers objectify women (or men in otome stories), and the degrading depiction of characters. It's not about belief or acceptance or whatever. Of course some are executed better than others. I like Gotoubun no Hanayome, for example. It's an example of how to write a harem manga without degrading the characters - each of the sisters has their own charms and can live on without the protagonist, Fuutarou, without throwing away her self-respect. They aren't desperate, mindless heroines who exist solely to cater to the protagonist, each of them has their own goals, dreams and lives.

Again, the topic isn't about how "harem" as a genre is problematic, but why people dislike the majority of current harem novels. And it's not because of the genre itself but the way these writers execute it.