• Diss

  • Anyone else dislikes the majority of current harem novels? Cause I do.

SecretWolf To put it simply I am just saying to just treat it as fantasy

I'm trying to explain that you can't "simply treat it as fantasy." It's like pretending apples are oranges. "If you like apples, why can't you like oranges? Just treat the oranges like apples." It doesn't work that way.

As for Game of Thrones, it doesn't degrade people, characters, things and occupations. What it does is present how terrible things are, it doesn't romanticize them like the cultivation or harem or CEO stories. It's okay to write about rape, but you need to handle it properly and depict the horrors that the victim suffers, not hand-wave it away and have her fall for the CEO who raped her just because he's rich and handsome. Game of Thrones doesn't do that. It hits you with "hey, look, this is horrible as f." You are horrified when people die, when your favorite characters get killed off. It's not like cultivation novels where the protagonist just straight-up kills people who provokes him and readers love it. They are horrified by the violence, not admire it. That's why people like it. I don't get your obsession with "fantasy" - that's not the point here. If people dislike Game of Thrones, it's because of the excessive violence and brutality in the series, and not because it's "fantasy."

You really have to stop comparing apples with oranges. You can't just say, "if you like fantasy, you should like harem too." That's not how it works, they are two completely different things.

      Tomoyuki
      Mate, you are all over the place.
      You talk about morals one second but defend GoT's logic as ok while the novels not. You can either say is it is morally bad or not. Then you go on saying it is to evoke emotions in GoT so it is fine and they are remorseful. He pushes a kid no remorse..etc. You only cared about the main character while the other deaths and normal people that died in GoT, no one cared. Any novel in here that keeps killing people close to MC will get a similar response. I don't remember any of the main characters being horrified of violence each one takes that path and quite easily and happily. They marched and killed for 'honour' no difference then here. If the consider someone enemy they kill. Same logic. Most novel here someone close to them get killed they kill back. What is the difference?
      Why are you bring rape and CEO again... different tags?
      This apples and oranges... I just said that harem is fine as long as the Author and setting permit it and explains it, similar to GoT. There is no Apples and Oranges.... its a fruit basket and you are claiming to throw away the fruit basket because you dislike apples.

          SecretWolf Because rape happened in Game of Thrones, and I'm explaining how the two stories handle it differently.

          Game of Throne's logic is not about promoting immorality, but showcasing just how horrifying lack of morals is. Whereas in cultivation novels, they seem to promote violence and ruthlessness. In Game of Thrones, when you saw the scene where they kill the kid, you feel horrified. You feel rage. You're supposed to be shocked and appalled at the brutality meted out to a child - it's that kind of story. It's how it was executed. You're not supposed to enjoy the violence, you're supposed to be horrified by it and hope that it will all end eventually. Or that the protagonist overcomes it without turning into a monster himself.

          Whereas in cultivation stories, the protagonist will slaugher all the children in the sect that provoked him, and readers will just laugh and say, "they deserve it." No one is horrified...because the story is executed in a way that even children deserve to die (I don't know, maybe the children abused and insulted the protagonist). It's just bloody cavalier and disgusting.

          That's the morals I'm talking about here. The way they execute their treatment of violence. It is okay to write about violence. It is NOT okay to romanticize and promote violence as the solution. It's all right to write about beautiful women falling for a guy. It's NOT all right to degrade them into flat characters who exist solely to pander to the protagonist.

          And what fruit basket? If you don't like oranges, should I force you to like them because you love apples? That makes no sense. No one says harem is not fine. People are explaining why they dislike harem and you appear to insist that they should give it a chance, that they should like it. Why? If you don't like durians, how would you feel if I force you to eat it by claiming that it's a fruit basket and that if you like apples, you should like durians too? Your logic doesn't make any sense. No one is saying harem stories shouldn't exist, but you are here trying to convince people who don't like it to like it because they like other kinds of stories.

          You're basically saying, "if you like fantasy, then you must give harem a chance too!" No, that's not how it works. Just because I like sci-fi doesn't mean I must give thrillers a chance. They are two different genres, and I like what I like and I dislike what I dislike.

              Personally i really like harem settings so let me explain why before you flame :x

              I overall really enjoy romance stories. But i am just really really bad with sad stuff. Sadly in many normal romance stories that got quite long there are other girls that have feelings for the mc as well (lot less likely if its female lead tho) and i always felt terrible for them :/
              So at some point i started to prefer stories were every girl cool be happy together with the mc.

              But i also understand why many ppl dislike harem settings. Beside ppl like the thread owner, there are many who have actually good reasons; E.g. lag of reasoning, sacrificing good romance for harem plot etc. And i totally agree with that. I am really frustrated that many harem stories are only about a guy collecting girls like objects and thats it, often also overloaded with sex. And yeah, i really dislike this side of harem settings.
              But at the end (for me personally) its a lot more important that every girl can have a happyend with the mc. And there ARE actually really cute harem settings. Often it gets really interesting if the male is not the only "reason" for everything. If the girls getting more attention and depth and care not only for the mc but also for each other... it can be really fluffy and especially those stories are really fun to read (in my opinion).

              But again, in general i'm just terrible with sad stuff and harem settings are a great way to get a happyend for everyone.
              And at the end, there are so many romance stories, just read what you enjoy =D

              edit:
              1. In general i am quite open for all kind of romance settings. I am fine with yuri and yaoi, i often cheer for the "sister characters" in animes to end up with "onii-chan" etc. So maybe thats why i also don't care about harem settings.
              2. There are mainly two "reasoning" for a harem setup; Super alpha mc who just want all the girls and they just accept it somehow. And settings were the girls really not only care for the mc but also for each other (sometimes with borderline yuri) and it feels more like a family. Ofc there are mixed forms and other reasons, but those two main settings are quite common and as i said above, the second setting can be really cute and fluffy and i really enjoy those =D

                Tomoyuki
                Sigh, I am totally agreeing with you, but you keep bringing points to make it seem like I am fighting you.
                My point is if the story meets 9/10 criteria and you are on the fence about harem give it a try because it can be good at times.
                Forcing no one.
                You are tieing other tags/genres to the discussion about harem to make your point.

                I am out -

                Here is the torch carry on friend - good luck Nebel
                Ps, I totally agree with you Nebel, that is also the reason for my interest in Harem.

                      SecretWolf noooo!! Take the torch back! xD

                      na, for real i won't write much here :x i know that some have good reasons to dislike harems, some only have read "bad" harems and transferring that experience to the genre in general, and then there are some who just think its immoral and dislike it without discussion. Btw. often that is also going along with disliking yuri/yaoi and stuff like that. You can't really talk with those ppl i guess. I mean, in RL we still struggle to give same-sex marriage the same rights as others...

                      I just stated my opinion and maybe someone who just had a bad experience with one harem novel is willing to give the genre another chance

                      edit (again): btw. some also actually have realistic moral worries about harems, like female abuse etc. and thats actually valid. I personally don't mind incest in novels (as mentioned before, i even like sister-characters) but in RL there is a good reason why its immoral. And mainly not because of genetics, but just because young girls could be forced to stuff... arg, don't really want to talk about it, its super sad. But again 1. novel is fiction and 2. in a perfect setting with everyone being happy with it... why should anyone complain as long as they are happy =D

                        Let me tell you this. IS you mother or father in harem. IF not remove this godly shit. Harem is shit dont listen to these pervy, many wife supportors. It is cancer and ruin all book. you see good man tell of rape and incest, with half animals in those books. Donot read, make your mind stupid.

                          4liyingyue That’s the M O O D, lmfaooo

                          Edit: ( I can read books with harem in it just for the plot but that doesn’t mean I will enjoy it... RIP).
                          Really, I’m just here to read the arguments and everyone’s point of view about this subject.
                          Everyone’s arguements are nice to read and they make me think about harem in a completely different way. But in the end, there are people who enjoy harem and people who don’t (hence why there is literally a dissing discussion about this, lol)

                            Like any genre in existence, harem is not the problem. It's the execution.

                            There is no objectively bad genre - or idea for that matter - it just comes down to how it's brought into the light.

                            The reason why harems are patronized is because of the fantasy of sexual and romantic superiority. Every male wants to be an alpha among the pack - minus testosterone deficient fellows who couldn't care less - and real-life doesn't work like that.

                            There are men like Ryan Gosling and Brad Pit who can swipe your girl faster than a seagull your pack of chips. In a world where the specific reader in question is average as can be, they resort to the fantasy of the novel they read to give them that feeling, to satiate that craving.

                            The authors in question too might fall into this category. They, and their readers, are self-inserting themselves into the eyes of the protag to simulate his experiences.

                            There are commonly two types of protags (from a male perspective) in harems. There are the Westernized versions who have an atypical 'nice guy' and the Easternized atypical 'strong-willed chad'.

                            These two have their own pros and cons.

                            For the Westernized protag, they usually believe heavily in monogamy and ordinance marriage. So when thrust in a situation where multiple women want them romantically, they tend to remain either indecisive or compensatory.

                            Indecisive in the case where they cannot choose one for fear of hurting the others or because they simply cannot overcome their moral barriers.

                            Compensatory in the case where they accept the polygamy/polyamory, then allow the females in the harem to become more dominant. They decide when he gets to have sex, they push him around, they miraculously manage themselves without his interference, etc.

                            You tend to see the indecisive type in JP media, and the compensatory type in most RR and Amazon ebooks with harem attached.

                            For the Easternized protag, they might either believe in monogamy or not. usually, they don't care because they are mini-batmen. For some reason, their wills are stronger than platinum and every female is a bag of flesh in their eyes.

                            When they miraculously - I say miraculously because it really is - find themselves as the target of multiple genuine affection, they usually sigh with lament and ignore them for as long as possible. It is usually the females who have to crawl, beg, and scrape in order to convince Chaddicus Chadmaster protag to accept their affections.

                            Hardly do you see such protagonists making the first move, for they are above such plebian things.

                            Now both of these types may have problematic MC, but the way the present the females is even worse and would require a longer wall of text, which I'm not willing to write.

                            As for the reason why harem in novels is weird is because no one realistically wants a harem in real life. Not out of morality, but due to the sheer difficulty of it.

                            No offense, but dealing with one partner alone is enough of a headache and people even complain that its too much to do so for the rest of their lives in marriage. This is just for 1 partner.

                            To manage a real life harem ,there needs to be something objectively attractive about you. Extremely good looks, high popularity, great wealth or something else.

                            This is what would bind the harem together, and should it unravel, so too does the harem go. They do not become sisters closer than even true siblings, they do not support each other wholeheartedly and they do not remain with you or tolerate each other our of sheer force of love.

                            Likely, they hate the others, seeing them as rivals, and would perform cruel acts behind the polygamous person's back, vying for the main spot. They will tear the others down verbally when alone with the polygamous person to raise themselves up and they will seek their own self-interest and that of any child borne through the relationship, some even using the child as a tool to that end.

                            Harems never have happy endings in real life, only in fantasy. That is one of the reasons people flock to it. Because, like most fiction, things can happen there that would never happen in real life.

                            Tomoyuki

                            You're actually kind of right about this. The most popular guys at my school were nice people, good looking, and or trend setters. I think people think really have a falsified conception of what it means to be a leading figure.

                            I think it also ties into the people reading the novel. Most people reading these harem/escapism novels have no clue how to act socially, and that ties into why they think respecting women is useless because even if they respect women, they still can't get in their pants. The problem is that if you're only respectful to women just to get into their pants, or skirts, or whatever, you're not actually being respectful.

                            Actual "alpha males" (in quotes, because the term is a social construct and was based on wolves, only to find out alpha wolves don't even exist), are people who are confident in themselves and don't feel the need to fit in the pack because they lead the pack. Some people really think that by following the pack, doing the same thing as everyone else, by being physically abusive, they're being alpha. And by calling every "feminine" thing "beta", they're being alpha.

                            Which shows they don't have confidence in themselves, or rather, maybe they have an inflated ego, but if they do anything outside that carefully constructed image, they'll shatter. No one is 100% strong all the time. We can put a strong image to comfort others, but if you're "acting Strong" because you wanna "look strong", are ya really?

                            I personally think that yes, we shouldn't cry about every little thing, but it's ok to acknowledge that we are upset, and work on ourselves to be better. And putting other people down doesn't make me better than anyone else.

                              I will come and go in this thread.
                              The only harem story that I like and accept the mist is...
                              The world god only knows.
                              This is some nice shit!! Trust me!! But, I recommend to watch first, second, and third season on anime first than continue to manga from the start. Just, ignore the ova. Also, I don't really recommend watching 3rd season until you finished the manga. That's all.

                                Carciphones_02 there's an ova? What is it about?
                                I already read the manga till the end. And then watch the anime season 1,2,3.
                                Don't really like the end of the manga since I still want more of it. And kinda upset with the anime since they cannot tell the story of all the girls from the manga. Too many just short "screenshot". 😢

                                    GegeSadewa Original video animation. Often a spin-off that wasn't broadcasted in the televised version, and direct to video. I assume it's fanservice and has nothing to do with the manga (so original content not related to the main story). Probably episode in the beach and stuff like that.

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