• Diss

  • Anyone else dislikes the majority of current harem novels? Cause I do.

I just don't like harem. I mean, given that I only have the social experience and thinking that has been instilled into me I could be bias, but harem just also doesn't truly seem romantic for me either.

Take for example, how romantic is it for the harem girls to always have to share the one guy with others. Can you honestly say that each girl is truly happy and willingly chooses to share the guy with others rather than have him all to themselves?

Taking that aside, my main dislike towards harem is the illogical aspect of how harems are placed into stories. Take Er Gen's novels for example. They always start off as the male MC having a childhood love interest in which serves as their WHOLE REASON for the story in which the MC wants to be strong in order to be with them BUT along the way he meets this beautiful goddess blah blah girl and things happen (accidental rape or girl threatens to kill herself if she isn't with MC or guilt trips MC into loving her) and then when he meets the childhood friend, she just laughs it off and pouts a bit and then holds hands with the other girl and they become sworn sisters sharing that one man. I mean .... I get that it is fantasy but seriously .... I can understand the MC changing his heart and wanting another woman along the way but for the childhood girl to just suddenly accept the MC's other wife upon their first meeting since the beginning of the entire novel?
This story template is like prince charming going to find cinderella and then after finding and proposing to cinderella he tells her "Hey I am so so so happy to finally find you and be together. ..... Oh yeah, I forgot. Along the way, I accidentally slept with and got together with another woman. I also love her and you both. So let's have a happy family together. Be good sisters from now on okay. Thanks."

Also I hate the trope where MC either saves or fights random woman and then she tells MC "No one has ever beaten me before" Or "No one has ever seen my true face before" ... "Therefore, you must MARRY ME! I have always told myself that the first person to ever beat me, I will marry them (or the first person to see my face will be the one I will marry)" MC rejects but then is guilt trip by that woman's constant treat that she has made a vowed to herself and so if the MC doesn't accept her, she will kill herself. In the end, MC accepts her and then suddenly loves her too. I mean ..... if that is how MC is .... how easy it would be to get a spy woman into his harem and then assassinate him. All the woman has to do is be beaten and then threaten him with her life and then BAM he accepts her. Is this still the smart, strong, and ruthless MC that killed entire sects for revenge? MC can kill enemies without blinking but can't stand to watch a woman kill herself because of her own selfish reasoning and therefore you must marry her even though you told your childhood girl that you will one day find her and marry her. Imagine telling that reasoning to her later, "So yeah, she threaten to kill herself if I didn't marry her so I did. But don't worry. I still love you. We can be a happy family of three. Oh, but you can't look at any other guys. It makes me unhappy. From now on, you are mine and can't have any thoughts about anyone else." I swear .... harem makes no sense at all.

Regardless of whether harem stories are right or wrong, at this point, from all the novels I've read so far, all harem and reverse harem stories have been written badly and causes the story to downgrade and ultimately pushes the reader away from the story line.

    I get you honestly it's messed up, how can you say you love someone but still marry someone eles and that still be with the first person it makes absolutely no sense then the craziest part is they see sharing the same person as normal.......like wow

    Just read western novels (just affairs and no harems) and modern setting. Then you will rarely encounter harems. But the best way is to check the tag first.

    Hope this helps!

    jae_thao accidental rape or girl threatens to kill herself if she isn't with MC or guilt trips MC into loving her

    :eyes: Dude. No wonder I don't read harems. The only one I ever checked out was Trinity Seven and that was too weird.

    Is it me, but when I see the word harem I think of Hugh Hefner.

      You know what pisses me most of all about harems? Double standards.

      The guy can sleep around with any number of women and have many wives, but all of them must be pure and lose their virginities only to him alone. They are not allowed to touch any other men - if they do, they are "sluts" and meet grisly fates. Or best of all, if one of the female characters sleeps with another guy, the readers will call her a whore or whatever, scream about NTR and all that nonsense. Yet the readers think it's perfectly fine for the guy to plunge his meatstick into every hole he comes across, and God forbids he chooses to preserve his chastity or refuse to accept beautiful women throwing themselves at him...because if he does that, readers complain that he's a beta loser.

      Now imagine if the story is about a woman who has multiple partners. You can bet your a that the readers will condemn her. Oh, never mind that...if the main character meets a woman who isn't "pure" or isn't a virgin, she's suddenly a thot and the readers will bring out all the "begone, thot!" banners. Yet that never applies to the male main character. I wonder why.

      Or how about readers demanding that the main character put women in their place, but if he so much as respects the women or accedes to their requests, he's suddenly a worthless simp. Because, you know, many male readers believe that respectable alpha males are those who indulge in domestic abuse. No wonder there's so much romanticization of rape flying around.

        Tomoyuki Could you imagine going to any FMC novel and seeing rants about beta FL every time you encounter second male lead syndrome?

        I'm between thinking it might be either oddly satisfying as a display of equality or damn annoying to see alpha/beta everywhere.

            KoraL I can't imagine it. I'm not even sure what beta female lead means or why anyone would call them beta because of second male lead syndrome. Acually, what does second male lead syndrome even mean? Does it mean the second male lead is a simp for chasing after the female main character even though she's clearly in love with the first male lead? Or is it a syndrome where the second male lead always gets rejected even though he's much better than the male lead (first of all, he's not abusive, he doesn't ignore her, and he always helps her whenever she needs it)? Or are readers complaining that the female protagonist is a beta because she refuses to have a harem of rich, handsome men and insists on choosing only one to be her lover? Which makes no sense, because no self-respecting man would ever settle for being part of a harem belonging to what is supposedly an ordinary girl - especially if he's a rich, powerful, handsome CEO who can have any woman he wants. Similarly, one of the things I hate most about harems is how the heroines never respect themselves and denigrate themselves by sharing one man (like, who does that? Have more self-respect, ladies - you deserve better).

            But yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if male readers go in there and call the second male lead a simp.

                This definition

                Tomoyuki Or is it a syndrome where the second male lead always gets rejected even though he's much better than the male lead (first of all, he's not abusive, he doesn't ignore her, and he always helps her whenever she needs it)?

                This interpretation

                Tomoyuki Or are readers complaining that the female protagonist is a beta because she refuses to have a harem of rich, handsome men and insists on choosing only one to be her lover?

                Tomoyuki Which makes no sense, because no self-respecting man would ever settle for being part of a harem

                Right! So why exactly should females always have to be the ones with no self-respect!
                How did it even get to the point of monogamy being unmasculine while being the only acceptable standard for females?

                But to be fair, it always feels like harem stories always have brainless heroines. Or some unexplained skewed gender ratio. Actually most of the time the only character with more than half a brain cell ends up being the MC. Maybe that's why all the girls are with him.

                        I do hate harem it doesn't work in ANY novel I've ever found and it tends to completely ruin ever novel it touches you can have a great novel that has an awesome premise but then the author spends the next 40 chapters having the mc make a harem and have literally no downsides or anything in their way and they end up with a bunch of perfect women or something like that. I go out of my way to avoid all novels with the harem tag. fuck harems.

                          ratted now that I think about it, Seeking Good Temptation was a pretty interesting take on a reverse harem. It was absolutely full of consequences. I think that near the end nobody was really happy.

                            Tbh, when I think about harem, it’s just plain depressing to me. All the men or women in the harem can be with the MC but they can never really ‘have’ them. The idea on monogamy is drilled into my head so much to when I see harems happening, I feel quite uncomfortable and sometimes even disgusted... MC please just stay loyal with one partner and don’t belittle their love for you... (｡-_-｡)

                            KoraL Agreed. In harem stories, the girls behave as if the protagonist is the only guy in the world, and it's disturbing. I wish they would have more self-respect. If a girl has been taken, I'm not going to try to steal her from her boyfriend or husband (force her to break up/divorce just like all those nonsensical son-in-law stories). Like, the sea is so vast, there are so many other fishes, or don't overlook a forest for a single tree. Similarly, girls should just look for other guys who treat them better rather than be obsessed with this single dude who...I don't even know why they are so madly in love with him. It's as if he's the only guy in the world who's nice to them (really?).

                            Most of these guys in son-in-law stories are rich and handsome enough that they can get any girl they want, but they are obsessed over...the protagonist's wife for no reason other than so he has an excuse to beat them up when they lay their hands on his wife, even though in reality no man will lack that much self-respect to go after another guy's wife in such a stupid manner. Similarly, most of these girls are cute/beautiful/talented enough to have any guy they want, so I don't understand why they're obsessed with a plain, often indecisive and unremarkable guy just because he's...nice to them. Or why they are willing to share him - these girls are smart enough to understand their own worth - they can pick any guy who would be willing to devote his life to her alone, but no, they decide to swarm over a single guy and "share" him because...I dunno, it's the ultimate wet dream for the protagonist.

                              I don't get it, you can accept
                              - people flying
                              - turning to beasts
                              - teleportation
                              - creating fire
                              - accept murder/killing
                              - dragons
                              etc.
                              AND YOU DRAW the line on Harem. It is fantasy just go with it. Granted some stories take it too far. But I find the fact that in none harem books where MC takes two FL with him to the end of the plot and tells one FUCK OFF here is my friend as a replacement and get along with him, is much worst. (Author says - suddenly love blossomed between them, please.)
                              It is fantasy - harem, in my opinion, is good, because just as I am picky with ML so am with FL. If I don't like FL or MC picks the wrong one of two (most of the time there are two options) then I just end up quitting. Harem - he picks both. Don't enjoy seeing the first one but at least second is not dumped at the end of the story to his friend.
                              Sometimes I just look for those without FL and romance, if I am looking for pure action-adventure as I don't have to worry about the disappointing end.

                              Also, there is the Affair path MC goes tricks women sleep with them for a while, gets bored come back to FL. How is that a better option?
                              Anyway, a harem is not always done right? But the chances of having a satisfying end is much higher than non-harem that MC takes first pick in the group of girls the remaining ones are picked by his party. Plus I find the fact that people lump rape and other stuff with a harem disappointing. Many books that don't have harem have rape and so does harem book. So why make it a harem problem I don't understand.
                              As for the, how can you think if FLs are happy? Then if we are comparing to real-life divorce rate is 50 percent all books should end with either the couple living happily or divorce in 6 months.
                              It is fantasy... if authors say they are happy, they are happy. If you are going to accept him saying that pigs fly, it is ok to kill, why stop there?

                                It's not the matter of realism. I don't think the lack of realism is the problem - in fact, harems are realistic. Look at the Middle East, or even in history. Nobles had concubines. Sultans have harems of women. Comparing harems to fantasy or flying pigs or magic is just absurd because harems actually do exist in reality. So if you think the issue people have with harems is "lack of realism", you're sorely mistaken.

                                The problem with harem is the sort of values inherent within it. I wouldn't go so far as to say it "promotes" them, but it seems to naturalize the attitude that women are objects or trophies to be added into a man's collection. The harem genre treats women (or men as the case may be, depending on who the protagonist and gender) as objects and with no respect at all. Like these characters exist simply to love the main character. It's degrading and insulting to the poor characters. It's not the matter of realism, but rather the degrading depiction of men/women. Most of all, it's simply poorly written and horribly executed. Women fall for a single guy for no reason other than because he's nice?

                                By the way, the affair path is considered harem. Harem simply refers to any or all stories where the protagonst has multiple relationships with members of the opposite sex (or same sex, depending on the genre). The affair path is yet another reason why people hate harems. Because the protagonist is, quite simply, a scum. Harem doesn't necessarily mean the main character ends up with multiple women by the end of the story. There's a reason why manga like Nisekoi are considered harem. The harem genre simply refers to a story where a single person is surrounded by multiple (usually 3 or more, 2 is just love triangles and drama, and isn't considered harem) characters who are romantically in love with him/her. Whether he/she ends up with only one of them is irrelevant.

                                Now if you have a series like Kimi no Iru Machi, that's not exactly harem because it's not like there are multiple women in love with Haruto at once, unlike in Nisekoi where you have 4 or more heroines competing for Raku's affections. But Kimi no Iru Machi is not an affair story either - just because Haruto dates Asuka before getting back with Yuzuki doesn't mean he had an affair. It's a realistic portrayal of life where normal people (unlike harem protagonists) have several relationships throughout their life. Most people will form relationships, break up, and then date another person again. That's not an affair. However, the affair that SecretWolf mentions is precisely the tripe produced out of harem novels where all the women in the story want to sleep with the male protagonist because he...I don't know. Sometimes he's not even a chad but just an indecisive scum who goes with the flow. Yet they are all attracted to him for some reason. Another example of poor execution. It's not realism, but if the readers can't be convinced that the girls like the guy according to the rules established by the world in that story, then they will find the whole thing ridiculous.

                                Now, will men who read harem novels suddenly turn into cheating tyrants who abuse women or cruelly lead them on? I hope not. Such a claim is as dumb as nonsensical claims about gamers being more prone to murdering people with guns just because they play shooters. Or increase in violence just because people watch action movies. However, when you start seeing readers' comments where they call women "sluts" for not being virgins (and thus have no right to be part of the harem) or accusing men of being "simps" just because they respect women and accede to their requests, you get the feeling that there is some sort of negative influence at play here. As in, the normalization of insidious attitudes that are far subtler than "he's going to become a murderer because he plays Call of Duty!"

                                  Tomoyuki Thanks I can see where you are coming from and I understand your points.

                                  When you look at it through such lense, it indeed does not paint a pretty picture. But there is also more at play here.
                                  Then shouldn't we also consider the fact that violence is also normalized here and similarly affects people? similar comments if MC lets an enemy survive. (calling him coward, stupid etc.)

                                  Other ideas such as
                                  - dangerous adventures always bear fruits
                                  - Mc is always right
                                  - how morality is twisted for many of MC's actions
                                  - Idea of perfect love (finding perfect fairy's no problem with them or their relationships)

                                  And romance stories, how one of them only lives for the other one and the idea of such sacrifice as a test for love.

                                  The reality is everything is exaggerated and all stories have more things wrong with them then right. Does objectification happen only in Harem? No - most stories objectify either gender based on the MC's gender and genre.

                                  What about the objectification of life, from killing 1 to millions of people are accepted as long as the MC has a reason? so then shouldn't we also hate Action for this reason?

                                  Honestly going by the comments any action of MC will be met by someone's hate because it does not make sense to them. Again comment such as the "Slut" etc. has nothing to do with the genre, but the people's opinion or the authors choice in plot and should not be a reason to judge a genre by it. If the setting is the olden times where virginity was important, then like you said people will judge it based on that. Is it wrong yes, but is it wrong in that setting, time and the world then only the author and plot can tell you that.

                                  What I do agree with is that characters are poorly written at times and it takes away from the story as the reason for people to follow MC is simply that he/she is MC. I would not care about the number of harem members as long it suits the plot, setting, world and laws of the story. Is many members going to take away from deep character development that happens with a few of them? Yes. But I am not simply going to hate it for that. like you pointed out, harem has happened in the past and is happening currently, so I don't think there is a reason to fault it in a fantasy story when the setting, time and plot matches it.

                                  I think when we turn a blind eye to so many other problems of killing, flying, magic etc. Harem should not be the only areas you shine a light at. Either put it everywhere or don't bother. If an author puts non virgin person and someone calls the member "slut" and you don't encourage the author for making it realistic then you are just encouraging him to continue on that path and make his story how the people want. All he has to do is add an extra sentence to make the change.

                                  Don't blame all the problems on Harem, because there are good ones and bad ones like every other genre and if you are going to not read it just because then you are letting those that read it define its direction. Harem has bases in real life so it should be more acceptable than other genres and the fact that only one side has a major say in it, it is in its current form that people have an aversion towards.

                                  My problem is with people that say, "I hate harem and will never read it," Then why should it have all the things that you want when you are not planning to read it. If you are not willing to read it why should any Author care about your opinion?

                                  My personal opinion is, it is Fantasy accept the direction it is going, and judge it based on the setting. If it matches the setting then the author is doing what he/she promised. If there is a huge mismatch then pointed it out, but you can't judge the relationship based on this world's standards while accepting their immortal lives/magic and other fantasy elements,

                                      Actually, I agree with you. Perhaps it's because I'm from the Japanese school of manga and anime, but I really hate all these stories that promote killing, ruthlessness, etc.

                                      SecretWolf Other ideas such as
                                      - dangerous adventures always bear fruits
                                      - Mc is always right
                                      - how morality is twisted for many of MC's actions
                                      - Idea of perfect love (finding perfect fairy's no problem with them or their relationships)

                                      These are what I hate about many of the Chinese-styled stories too. Tales of Demons and Gods, in particular, where Nie Li is always right because he is the protagonist. It doesn't matter if he does something that I - and normal people - would condemn (such as humiliating and bullying one of the heroines' father), he is right because the author says he is right. And I hate that sort of nonsense.

                                      It gets so bad that whenever I write a story, readers complain and flame my protagonist for being "stupid" or "spineless" or "retarded" because he doesn't kill an enemy. Like, what the f? I find it disturbing that so many readers are bloodthirsty and calling for psychopathic protagonists like Chen Bei Xuan. They want all protagonists to be like Chen Bei Xuan, who kills all four generations of a family who attacked him, and doesn't hesitate to kill people for insulting/offending him. Just a single verbal insult and he kills them. Like, seriously? That's the sort of protagonists people want? And if my protagonist doesn't do that, you're going to flame my story and characters?

                                      It is also why I hate cultivation stories. You hit the nail on the head - the objectification and casual dismissal of life. Maybe I'm used to Japanese light novel stories (with a lot of exceptions, like the revenge stories) where the protagonists are "pacifists" who don't kill unless absolutely necessary, but I find it disturbing that most characters are treated as caricatures. They exist solely to attack and try to kill the protagonist, just so he has an excuse to murder them. The execution of such stories is just...terrible. 9 out of 10 times, the male character who shows up is a violent, greedy, psychopathic, muderous rapist who is either jealous of the protagonist or desires his lover, and does all sort of nonsense to kill him. And then the author or characters would justify it as "survival of the fittest" or "strong eat the weak", never mind that sort of mentality makes no sense. Oh, as for female characters, they only exist to be added to the protagonist's harem. I think it's kind of disgusting.

                                      I don't turn a blind eye to killing and poor execution or poor writing. Also, again, I don't know why you are comparing harem and killing/violence to magic/flying. They are two completely different things. Nobody is being objectified just because the characters use magic or can fly. Characters aren't two-dimensional if they can fly or use magic. However, if they exist just to kill and get killed (caricatural villains) or just as trophies to be added to a harem, then yeah, I think there's a problem.

                                      SecretWolf Harem has bases in real life so it should be more acceptable than other genres

                                      This is not about acceptable or unacceptable. I don't even understand why it should be more acceptable than other genres...just because it has a basis in reality? That makes no sense at all. Why are you even comparing it to other genres in the first place? Other genres get similar hate too. Some people never read sci-fi because they find it boring and they can't stand all the pseudo-scientific jargon. Some people neve read fantasy because it's, as you say, unrealistic, and they prefer crime novels, for example. But that's not the point here. The thread is asking why people hate harem stories, not why it's less/more acceptable than other genres. It's meaningless to compare because each genre has its supporters and detractors. It's like saying, "you like apples, why can't you like oranges as well?"

                                      Also, the problem is not

                                      SecretWolf accepting their immortal lives/magic and other fantasy elements,

                                      The problem is the way harem stories are executed, the way writers objectify women (or men in otome stories), and the degrading depiction of characters. It's not about belief or acceptance or whatever. Of course some are executed better than others. I like Gotoubun no Hanayome, for example. It's an example of how to write a harem manga without degrading the characters - each of the sisters has their own charms and can live on without the protagonist, Fuutarou, without throwing away her self-respect. They aren't desperate, mindless heroines who exist solely to cater to the protagonist, each of them has their own goals, dreams and lives.

                                      Again, the topic isn't about how "harem" as a genre is problematic, but why people dislike the majority of current harem novels. And it's not because of the genre itself but the way these writers execute it.

                                              Tomoyuki Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that there is a problem with how everything is portrayed in some of these novels. To put it simply I am just saying to just treat it as fantasy, take Game of Thrones as an example it has genres and things that degrades people, characters, things, occupations etc, but it is considered a fantasy work and treated as such.

                                              Tomoyuki Again, the topic isn't about how "harem" as a genre is problematic, but why people dislike the majority of current harem novels. And it's not because of the genre itself but the way these writers execute it.

                                              I can see that you have an understanding of Harem and is not just avoiding the genre just because, but criticizing some of its aspects. But some comments above is about "harem" as a genre being problematic. My point is that it has its gems. I am sure, if you read the comments in a thread you will see the reason for some of my points.

                                              If anything I am all for better books and improvements in novels.

                                                    SecretWolf yeah you see the thing is those things make a story good harems just ruin everything it's either shit writing with horrible character building or just a shitty story overall I ain't saying a story has to have monogamy I'm just saying that its a shitty thing to put in a book and you can tell

                                                      I don't care what the opinions or morality of something is I just care about the quality of the writing and harem has so many bad writing habits attached to it that it is poisonous

                                                      Well, for my opinion is ; I like harem. But good harem. And there are alot of harem story that is bad and I dont like them. Since to found good harem that I like, we have to read more harem story so that I could get some harem story that is good and I like them. 🥰

                                                      SecretWolf To put it simply I am just saying to just treat it as fantasy

                                                      I'm trying to explain that you can't "simply treat it as fantasy." It's like pretending apples are oranges. "If you like apples, why can't you like oranges? Just treat the oranges like apples." It doesn't work that way.

                                                      As for Game of Thrones, it doesn't degrade people, characters, things and occupations. What it does is present how terrible things are, it doesn't romanticize them like the cultivation or harem or CEO stories. It's okay to write about rape, but you need to handle it properly and depict the horrors that the victim suffers, not hand-wave it away and have her fall for the CEO who raped her just because he's rich and handsome. Game of Thrones doesn't do that. It hits you with "hey, look, this is horrible as f." You are horrified when people die, when your favorite characters get killed off. It's not like cultivation novels where the protagonist just straight-up kills people who provokes him and readers love it. They are horrified by the violence, not admire it. That's why people like it. I don't get your obsession with "fantasy" - that's not the point here. If people dislike Game of Thrones, it's because of the excessive violence and brutality in the series, and not because it's "fantasy."

                                                      You really have to stop comparing apples with oranges. You can't just say, "if you like fantasy, you should like harem too." That's not how it works, they are two completely different things.

                                                          Tomoyuki
                                                          Mate, you are all over the place.
                                                          You talk about morals one second but defend GoT's logic as ok while the novels not. You can either say is it is morally bad or not. Then you go on saying it is to evoke emotions in GoT so it is fine and they are remorseful. He pushes a kid no remorse..etc. You only cared about the main character while the other deaths and normal people that died in GoT, no one cared. Any novel in here that keeps killing people close to MC will get a similar response. I don't remember any of the main characters being horrified of violence each one takes that path and quite easily and happily. They marched and killed for 'honour' no difference then here. If the consider someone enemy they kill. Same logic. Most novel here someone close to them get killed they kill back. What is the difference?
                                                          Why are you bring rape and CEO again... different tags?
                                                          This apples and oranges... I just said that harem is fine as long as the Author and setting permit it and explains it, similar to GoT. There is no Apples and Oranges.... its a fruit basket and you are claiming to throw away the fruit basket because you dislike apples.

                                                              SecretWolf Because rape happened in Game of Thrones, and I'm explaining how the two stories handle it differently.

                                                              Game of Throne's logic is not about promoting immorality, but showcasing just how horrifying lack of morals is. Whereas in cultivation novels, they seem to promote violence and ruthlessness. In Game of Thrones, when you saw the scene where they kill the kid, you feel horrified. You feel rage. You're supposed to be shocked and appalled at the brutality meted out to a child - it's that kind of story. It's how it was executed. You're not supposed to enjoy the violence, you're supposed to be horrified by it and hope that it will all end eventually. Or that the protagonist overcomes it without turning into a monster himself.

                                                              Whereas in cultivation stories, the protagonist will slaugher all the children in the sect that provoked him, and readers will just laugh and say, "they deserve it." No one is horrified...because the story is executed in a way that even children deserve to die (I don't know, maybe the children abused and insulted the protagonist). It's just bloody cavalier and disgusting.

                                                              That's the morals I'm talking about here. The way they execute their treatment of violence. It is okay to write about violence. It is NOT okay to romanticize and promote violence as the solution. It's all right to write about beautiful women falling for a guy. It's NOT all right to degrade them into flat characters who exist solely to pander to the protagonist.

                                                              And what fruit basket? If you don't like oranges, should I force you to like them because you love apples? That makes no sense. No one says harem is not fine. People are explaining why they dislike harem and you appear to insist that they should give it a chance, that they should like it. Why? If you don't like durians, how would you feel if I force you to eat it by claiming that it's a fruit basket and that if you like apples, you should like durians too? Your logic doesn't make any sense. No one is saying harem stories shouldn't exist, but you are here trying to convince people who don't like it to like it because they like other kinds of stories.

                                                              You're basically saying, "if you like fantasy, then you must give harem a chance too!" No, that's not how it works. Just because I like sci-fi doesn't mean I must give thrillers a chance. They are two different genres, and I like what I like and I dislike what I dislike.

                                                                  Personally i really like harem settings so let me explain why before you flame :x

                                                                  I overall really enjoy romance stories. But i am just really really bad with sad stuff. Sadly in many normal romance stories that got quite long there are other girls that have feelings for the mc as well (lot less likely if its female lead tho) and i always felt terrible for them :/
                                                                  So at some point i started to prefer stories were every girl cool be happy together with the mc.

                                                                  But i also understand why many ppl dislike harem settings. Beside ppl like the thread owner, there are many who have actually good reasons; E.g. lag of reasoning, sacrificing good romance for harem plot etc. And i totally agree with that. I am really frustrated that many harem stories are only about a guy collecting girls like objects and thats it, often also overloaded with sex. And yeah, i really dislike this side of harem settings.
                                                                  But at the end (for me personally) its a lot more important that every girl can have a happyend with the mc. And there ARE actually really cute harem settings. Often it gets really interesting if the male is not the only "reason" for everything. If the girls getting more attention and depth and care not only for the mc but also for each other... it can be really fluffy and especially those stories are really fun to read (in my opinion).

                                                                  But again, in general i'm just terrible with sad stuff and harem settings are a great way to get a happyend for everyone.
                                                                  And at the end, there are so many romance stories, just read what you enjoy =D

                                                                  edit:
                                                                  1. In general i am quite open for all kind of romance settings. I am fine with yuri and yaoi, i often cheer for the "sister characters" in animes to end up with "onii-chan" etc. So maybe thats why i also don't care about harem settings.
                                                                  2. There are mainly two "reasoning" for a harem setup; Super alpha mc who just want all the girls and they just accept it somehow. And settings were the girls really not only care for the mc but also for each other (sometimes with borderline yuri) and it feels more like a family. Ofc there are mixed forms and other reasons, but those two main settings are quite common and as i said above, the second setting can be really cute and fluffy and i really enjoy those =D

                                                                    Tomoyuki
                                                                    Sigh, I am totally agreeing with you, but you keep bringing points to make it seem like I am fighting you.
                                                                    My point is if the story meets 9/10 criteria and you are on the fence about harem give it a try because it can be good at times.
                                                                    Forcing no one.
                                                                    You are tieing other tags/genres to the discussion about harem to make your point.

                                                                    I am out -

                                                                    Here is the torch carry on friend - good luck Nebel
                                                                    Ps, I totally agree with you Nebel, that is also the reason for my interest in Harem.

                                                                          SecretWolf noooo!! Take the torch back! xD

                                                                          na, for real i won't write much here :x i know that some have good reasons to dislike harems, some only have read "bad" harems and transferring that experience to the genre in general, and then there are some who just think its immoral and dislike it without discussion. Btw. often that is also going along with disliking yuri/yaoi and stuff like that. You can't really talk with those ppl i guess. I mean, in RL we still struggle to give same-sex marriage the same rights as others...

                                                                          I just stated my opinion and maybe someone who just had a bad experience with one harem novel is willing to give the genre another chance

                                                                          edit (again): btw. some also actually have realistic moral worries about harems, like female abuse etc. and thats actually valid. I personally don't mind incest in novels (as mentioned before, i even like sister-characters) but in RL there is a good reason why its immoral. And mainly not because of genetics, but just because young girls could be forced to stuff... arg, don't really want to talk about it, its super sad. But again 1. novel is fiction and 2. in a perfect setting with everyone being happy with it... why should anyone complain as long as they are happy =D

                                                                            Let me tell you this. IS you mother or father in harem. IF not remove this godly shit. Harem is shit dont listen to these pervy, many wife supportors. It is cancer and ruin all book. you see good man tell of rape and incest, with half animals in those books. Donot read, make your mind stupid.

                                                                              4liyingyue That’s the M O O D, lmfaooo

                                                                              Edit: ( I can read books with harem in it just for the plot but that doesn’t mean I will enjoy it... RIP).
                                                                              Really, I’m just here to read the arguments and everyone’s point of view about this subject.
                                                                              Everyone’s arguements are nice to read and they make me think about harem in a completely different way. But in the end, there are people who enjoy harem and people who don’t (hence why there is literally a dissing discussion about this, lol)

                                                                                Like any genre in existence, harem is not the problem. It's the execution.

                                                                                There is no objectively bad genre - or idea for that matter - it just comes down to how it's brought into the light.

                                                                                The reason why harems are patronized is because of the fantasy of sexual and romantic superiority. Every male wants to be an alpha among the pack - minus testosterone deficient fellows who couldn't care less - and real-life doesn't work like that.

                                                                                There are men like Ryan Gosling and Brad Pit who can swipe your girl faster than a seagull your pack of chips. In a world where the specific reader in question is average as can be, they resort to the fantasy of the novel they read to give them that feeling, to satiate that craving.

                                                                                The authors in question too might fall into this category. They, and their readers, are self-inserting themselves into the eyes of the protag to simulate his experiences.

                                                                                There are commonly two types of protags (from a male perspective) in harems. There are the Westernized versions who have an atypical 'nice guy' and the Easternized atypical 'strong-willed chad'.

                                                                                These two have their own pros and cons.

                                                                                For the Westernized protag, they usually believe heavily in monogamy and ordinance marriage. So when thrust in a situation where multiple women want them romantically, they tend to remain either indecisive or compensatory.

                                                                                Indecisive in the case where they cannot choose one for fear of hurting the others or because they simply cannot overcome their moral barriers.

                                                                                Compensatory in the case where they accept the polygamy/polyamory, then allow the females in the harem to become more dominant. They decide when he gets to have sex, they push him around, they miraculously manage themselves without his interference, etc.

                                                                                You tend to see the indecisive type in JP media, and the compensatory type in most RR and Amazon ebooks with harem attached.

                                                                                For the Easternized protag, they might either believe in monogamy or not. usually, they don't care because they are mini-batmen. For some reason, their wills are stronger than platinum and every female is a bag of flesh in their eyes.

                                                                                When they miraculously - I say miraculously because it really is - find themselves as the target of multiple genuine affection, they usually sigh with lament and ignore them for as long as possible. It is usually the females who have to crawl, beg, and scrape in order to convince Chaddicus Chadmaster protag to accept their affections.

                                                                                Hardly do you see such protagonists making the first move, for they are above such plebian things.

                                                                                Now both of these types may have problematic MC, but the way the present the females is even worse and would require a longer wall of text, which I'm not willing to write.

                                                                                As for the reason why harem in novels is weird is because no one realistically wants a harem in real life. Not out of morality, but due to the sheer difficulty of it.

                                                                                No offense, but dealing with one partner alone is enough of a headache and people even complain that its too much to do so for the rest of their lives in marriage. This is just for 1 partner.

                                                                                To manage a real life harem ,there needs to be something objectively attractive about you. Extremely good looks, high popularity, great wealth or something else.

                                                                                This is what would bind the harem together, and should it unravel, so too does the harem go. They do not become sisters closer than even true siblings, they do not support each other wholeheartedly and they do not remain with you or tolerate each other our of sheer force of love.

                                                                                Likely, they hate the others, seeing them as rivals, and would perform cruel acts behind the polygamous person's back, vying for the main spot. They will tear the others down verbally when alone with the polygamous person to raise themselves up and they will seek their own self-interest and that of any child borne through the relationship, some even using the child as a tool to that end.

                                                                                Harems never have happy endings in real life, only in fantasy. That is one of the reasons people flock to it. Because, like most fiction, things can happen there that would never happen in real life.

                                                                                Tomoyuki

                                                                                You're actually kind of right about this. The most popular guys at my school were nice people, good looking, and or trend setters. I think people think really have a falsified conception of what it means to be a leading figure.

                                                                                I think it also ties into the people reading the novel. Most people reading these harem/escapism novels have no clue how to act socially, and that ties into why they think respecting women is useless because even if they respect women, they still can't get in their pants. The problem is that if you're only respectful to women just to get into their pants, or skirts, or whatever, you're not actually being respectful.

                                                                                Actual "alpha males" (in quotes, because the term is a social construct and was based on wolves, only to find out alpha wolves don't even exist), are people who are confident in themselves and don't feel the need to fit in the pack because they lead the pack. Some people really think that by following the pack, doing the same thing as everyone else, by being physically abusive, they're being alpha. And by calling every "feminine" thing "beta", they're being alpha.

                                                                                Which shows they don't have confidence in themselves, or rather, maybe they have an inflated ego, but if they do anything outside that carefully constructed image, they'll shatter. No one is 100% strong all the time. We can put a strong image to comfort others, but if you're "acting Strong" because you wanna "look strong", are ya really?

                                                                                I personally think that yes, we shouldn't cry about every little thing, but it's ok to acknowledge that we are upset, and work on ourselves to be better. And putting other people down doesn't make me better than anyone else.

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