It's not that surprising since the writers on this site are usually younger, first-time authors who are starting out at writing. (Not that this a bad thing though; everyone has to start somewhere.)

This is nothing new; it's also evidently clear (at least, for male readers) that the prevailing style of writing that they ascribe to and emulate is that of what they consumed before they became writers -- Japanese light novels, Chinese web novels, anime, manga, video games, etc...

I really do not want to bash on these mediums since they have their own select gems that show real sophistication and maturity in the themes and topics they deal with, but the vast majority is total hogwash. Very entertaining and fun stuff, but in the end, most of it is not very serious or well-written in nature. Let us be honest about that.

ML stories are almost always concerned with action and the basic progression of something (typically a character getting stronger, getting more heroines, building a bigger kingdom, etc...) because that's what sells for male readers. They want stories with a solid endgame goal, fanservice (wish fulfillment), and a large helping of engaging conflict to fill the chapters. Anything else is extraneous and not that necessary in the long run of the story.

They aren't interested in character development, interpersonal drama, or semi-serious romances that FL stories often have. And many FL stories are also chock full of the same stuff I mentioned for ML stories too but in a different flavor. The pot can't call the kettle black, tbh. Though I admit that they're usually not as ridiculous as ML novels.

In the end, it is crucial to understand that Webnovel is a site for digital pulp fiction. That's not a bad thing, but it means that the quality of the stories here will naturally not be the greatest. You have to take that into account with the stuff that male writers are trying to base their work off of and give our lads some leeway. They're learning the ropes.

    FattyBai

    That's pretty much why I write a novel that focuses quite a bit on the things you are saying ML stories are missing. Personally, I'm not writing a story for it to sell well on WN, so I don't follow the shallow tropes that draw in readers. But likely, many of us get overlooked because we aren't the ones trending.

    Overall, serious writing doesn't find itself profiting here because why would you settle for the low standards and pay? Might as well self-publish at that point.

      CacackleLasson Clearly you've never read the CEO stories that continue to plague this site.

      I hate harem, but when relationships consist of every single character hating the female protagonist for no reason other than because she's...the protagonist and tries to get her raped, ruin her reputation, humiliate her in public, abuse her...I don't see how that's objectively better than cultivation stories where every single character is trying to kill the male protagonist for no reason other than because he's the protagonist.

      Also, I'm not sure how romanticizing rape and domestic abuse is objectively better than an overpowered Mary Sue male protagonist on a power trip, beating up everybody who insults and tries to kill him.

      Plus, have you seen the dialogue in CEO novels? "How dare female protagonist gets close to first male lead! I want her to die!"

        Veronica8 In reality, romance novels, as a genre, make the most money and have the most forgiving readers. Fantasy and Sci Fi readers are the pickiest. The books I have started all have female protagonists. They tend to be strong, complex characters or at least that's the goal. My mom is probably one of the strongest women I know. You also have to keep in mind the expectations of the reader. If a book is an action book, stuff better blow up or the reader won't be happy. Same with romance... there BETTER be some smoochy smoochy and a happily ever after.

        Ever wonder why there are SO many cop shows on TV? Because most of the time it's a sure fire winner. People love to see justice getting served. At one time I think we had 3 CSI shows and I lost track of the NCIS franchise.

        Oops... there I go chasing rabbits again... lol

        Teacherman out

            This is quite a good thread to read, I've managed to gather thoughts and opinions from multiple sides :) A lot of good points are given so here's a boost to the post and others should definitely give it a read xD As for personal opinion, there's a lot of good gems in both Female Lead books and Male Lead books but there are also things I happily skip. In the end, I guess it all boils down if you achieve your writing goal: writing for self satisfaction and/or appealing to the readers~!

            I don't usually touch CEO books except for really good ones but I'm also the type who'd consume Reverse Harem books! Cultivation novels may be a hit or miss for me but a good System always manages to let me enjoy it here.

            In my honest opinion, the female/male novels are inherently different from the beginning. Like, every author (that I at least know off) started writing as a hobby. But only some managed to sit through the period where they were trash, learning how to get better. Only then the truly good authors are born. It's not like talent can solve everything when it comes to writing with how writing, in reality, is a daily toil. That gives us a current situation:

            • Author starts from a hobby, learning from the novels he/she read along the way and adapting their style a bit even if that's not the intention.
            • Author fails the first few times, learns on his mistakes, writes more and more, watches lectures about the theorem of writing, and generally, gets better
            • After countless fails and constant hard work over a long period of time, one finally manages to reach the level when the basic mistakes no longer apply to him, while his plots are interesting and original.

            The problem is, most of the novels on webnovel, especially orignals (with all the due respect to the great original novels that there are plenty off) are made by the first category of authors. People that still belongs to the first stage that I mentioned above. That puts us in a situation where:

            Male authors are mostly focused on Epics. Thats the general idea, steeming both from how masculine brain works, what do readers expect and generally the overall aims are similar to what one would like to achieve in his own dreams. That's why we have Hero's journey, Cultivation novels, Harem novels. Some might have better craft or ideas, but generally - it's all the same. Only once someone progresses along the way, would his plots turn diverse, his systems unexpected, their points flawless. But you are not seeing those novels. Outside of the selected few, most of what you are reading has the tough nut to crack to overcoming the burden of extremely explored genres, where everything has already been written to a huge extend.

            On the other hand, you have female authors in the same situation. Learning to read from the novels they read in the past, overusing the same schemes... But there is a huge difference between how man's and female's brain works (No gender propaganda here, just the general consensus). Men are more inclined to think about facts, logic, reason. If they see the problem, they wish to solve it. On the other hand, women are more focused on the feelings - something that allows to make the novel very intimate, allowing the readers to immerse in it even if the truth about the plot is subpar.

            It's because (in my honest opinion) this difference, that is the reason behind the point that OP mentioned. I would say those female novels have a way lower point of entry to get recognised, but there is a relative ceiling how far MOST (not all) of them would come. On the other hand, if an ml novel sticks around for long enough, its author has a huge chance of finding his own niche, in which he will produce something that will entice the readers just with the insane plot and craft.

            It's not that female or male-oriented novels or any better or any worse. Its that they are different, and have inherently different market demands and tasks to fulfil.

              MotivatedSloth I am going to have to point out one thing. The Hero' Journey is the oldest story telling technique in Western Literature. It's also the basis for most, if not all Disney movies not to mention TV shows like Avatar: The Last Airbender and The Mandalorian.

              I do agree that beginning writers, like yours truly, are on a learning curve because many of them don't know that they don't know, so they make the same mistakes over and over again. They don't know what the Hero's Journey is or why they should care or the difference between 3rd person omniscient and 3rd person limited. A friend of mine who is a published author likes to tell people that you need to write a million words before you can call yourself an author. I'm not sure he is wrong.

              I keep thinking about starting an advice thread for new authors to make their lives easier. Maybe after I finish my masters program I will do that.

              Teacherman... Out

                  LVTeacherman True.

                  You make a good point about female protagonist for action stories. I've written two shonen fantasy with female protagonists and both of them are failures. I couldn't hit a bankable reader demographic. They're difficult to market as I virtually have to make them do a lot of guy action stuff. Since they' re chicks there's the emotional complexity that I tend to write in, which gets lost in translation with a majority of shonen readers.

                  Then again, I write a lot of weird stuff that's a miss for most readers. My bad habit of letting my warped imagination get the better of me.

                      Veronica8 You may not be hitting the tropes of your genre properly. Those tropes are the expectations your readers have for that genre. If you meet those expectations, you'll be more successful. Or, switch genres, you might have more luck with a more traditional fantasy novel where female protagonists are more accepted.

                        Veronica8 That's less a problem with the gender of the protagonist and more an issue regarding the tropes of a genre. I think you might be approaching it from an odd angle.

                        Female protagonists in action stories work. You have Linda Hamiliton's Sarah Connor in the Terminator series, Sigourney Weaver's Ellen Ripley in the Alien franchise (and her daughter, Amanda Ripley, in Alien: Isolation) - which I first began by reading Alan Dean Foster's novelizations rather than watching the films, Jill Valentine in the Resident Evil series (along with Claire Redfield), Lara Croft in the Tomb Raider series, Hua Mulan in the traditional Chinese story (I shall not speak about the abomination that is the movie version), etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong wtih having a female protagonist in an action-orientated story.

                        As for guy action stuff, I mean...what exactly does that mean? Girls can kick ass too. Fighting, combat, adventuring and sports are not entirely in the realm of guys. Girls play games too. Girls learn martial arts too, and I'm not ashamed to say that I'll probably lose a fight to a girl (if she's trained in martial arts). Why are we differentiating activities according to gender? Is fishing a guy's activity? Fighting? What exactly is girl action stuff then? Must they be putting on makeup or dress up? What exactly are girly things? Why are we even differentiating these activities according to gender?

                        But if you are writing a shounen fantasy, then you'll have to conform to the genre. It's not about female protagonists doing guy action stuff or male protagonists doing guy action stuff, but about a fantasy protagonist doing fantasy stuff. If you're reading a book about fantasy knights versus orcs and dragons, then you expect to be reading about knights fighting against orcs and dragons, regardless of the protagonist's gender. If the knight is female, so be it. No one is going to drop your story because your protagonist is a female knight. But if she spends most of the story doing...I don't know, your example of girly things or angsting over romance (I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by emotional complexity) instead of fighting dragons and orcs, then yeah, of course the readers wouldn't be pleased. Because you didn't conform to the genre.

                        Here's an example: Duchess with an Empty Soul, a Korean manhwa. I began reading it thinking it would be a fantasy story because it's about a girl who can summon stuff, and she's actually manipulated to fight demons. She dies, gets reincarnated back to her younger self a couple of years ago...and instead of the war, she ends up getting entangled in all these political nonsense and marriage, and it focuses on her relationship with the male lead. After a while, I lost interest and dropped it - it was my fault, I came in expecting a fantasy story with summoned beasts fighting demons, but instead all I got was political stuff, marriage angst and cheesy romance. Needless to say, that wasn't what I was looking for, and I probably misread the synopsis or something (which was just a couple of lines, to be fair...). But as you can see, I don't care about the gender of the protagonist. I care more about her doing fantasy stuff in a fantasy story, not romance and angst. The problem was that I mistook what was clearly a romance drama story for a fantasy story.

                        Essentially, the gender of the protagonists does not matter. What matters is that they do activities that conform to the genre (not gender).

                            Tomoyuki As always full of insight. :grin: Emotional complexity = serious wants and needs. Not romance or political affairs. Although, fantasy can consist of this. Shonen fantasy in particular (historical fantasy). It might be a subplot, it would be rarely touched upon.

                            Example of what I'm referring to with emotional complexity:

                            An everyday woman who loves her femininity loses her family to a demon attack on her wedding day, but her husband survives in a crippled and infected-diseased state. The only way to cure him would be to seek out the demon that infected him and slay it. She wants her husband to live, so promises to seek out the demon and kill it. The problem is, the demon is the king of all demons intent to dominate humanity to be nothing but cattle. So, she needs to level up to be a martial artist and some form of combatant. A skillset that goes against her values of being a woman and loving wife. As she endures grueling training, she struggles with the way her body and soul has to change. To save her husband, she has no choice but continue to win battles and face ugly situations to reach the demon. In the process has a love/hate view of herself. The inner self battle is the emotional complexity.

                            This was one of the story premise I wrote that didn't test well.

                            You and LVTeacherman are right about conforming to Tropes. I guess, whilst I'm not doing this I won't receive readership. It's one of the reasons I write. Innovation. To smash through and test boundaries of what people perceive is fiction. I will and have achieved more failures than successes in doing so, but I gladly accept this fact. Also, I just write a story that comes to mind most times. As I've said before, my imagination is warped.

                                Veronica8 Uh, well...

                                Veronica8 she needs to level up to be a martial artist and some form of combatant. A skillset that goes against her values of being a woman and loving wife.

                                Why does being a martial artist/combatant go against her values of being a woman and loving wife? What does that have to do with anything? Why can't a woman be a martial artist/combatant?

                                Your story sounds pretty cool, but I will have to actually read it to see why it isn't popular. Inner self battles are pretty popular, and they have nothing to do with gender or "emotional complexity has no place in action" works. Many popular stories feature that kind of emotional complexity, whether the protagonist is male or female. Many popular stories have protagonists struggling against a moral dilemma, an inner darkness or inner monster, for example. Like, an ex-killer who's haunted by those he has murdered, or an ex-soldier who suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder. I'm thinking like Tom Clancy, James Patterson, Sidney Sheldon, John Grisham, to name a few. The Dark Knight trilogy is a great example of this - the emotional complexity of inner self battle is manifested in Bruce Wayne's attempt to overcome his fear (fear is a strong theme particularly in Batman Begins), his trauma of losing his parents to crime, and in The Dark Knight, it's the moral dilemma of not exposing his identity at the cost of people dying - people he's supposed to save. Iron Man too, the comic series sees Tony Stark battles against alcoholism while the movies have him struggle against his own hubris.

                                Popular action, male-orientated (and I'm using the term loosely) stories can be filled with emotional complexity. I wonder if it's not so much your inclusion of emotional complexity but rather your execution of it that might not appeal to the readers? I have to actually read the story to find out. From what I see, the premise is sound. It doesn't really subvert any tropes, to be honest. Only issue I can find is why can't a woman be a martial artist, or why can't a loving wife be a combatant? Is her idea of womanly values...pacifistic and nonviolent? But that's not inherently woman, is it?

                                      Didn’t read all the posts, so I’m just spouting my opinion randomly. I think this depends on preferences and who the author is a lot. However, I’m not surprised that female authors are (on average) writing better and more relatable stories than men.

                                      A lot of times guys are focused on the action and girls are focused on the thoughts/emotions in life. You know, a wife says, “Do the dishes.” Her husband does them and is shocked when she gets mad because he did them with a bad attitude. She ends up saying something like, “You can smile while you do the dishes!”

                                      See, the husband thought all that mattered was the action of getting the dishes clean. The wife wanted her husband to want to (or be joyful about) helping her with chores around the house. She was concerned about his emotions towards her and their life.

                                      Similar things happen in books. A guy writes an entire book where the whole thing reads like, “He punches this bad guy, and then he punches that bad guy!” He thinks it’s amazing, but his plot and characters are stale and emotionless.

                                      A woman writes the same book, but it reads like, “He fights with this bad guy to save a woman he loves because she has these characteristics!” As a result, the whole thing feels different to a reader.

                                      The male book might have better action, but it doesn’t connect with them. However, the female book touches them on an emotional level where they can say, “I want to be like that hero. When will I find a girl that makes me feel that way.”

                                      Again, just my thoughts. It is possible for women to write books devoid of emotion and for men to write tear jerkers as well though. I think the emotions just come more naturally to females while writing. They already (on average) spend more time thinking about what actions mean in terms of what the person doing them feels or thinks.

                                      Emotions will always trump actions in written stories in my opinion because (unlike movies where you can see it), it can be hard to make action scenes exciting on the page without an emotion tied to them.

                                      Tomoyuki Lots of lovely whys. If only you were around to ask these when the story was live.

                                      You raise good questions.

                                          I also think where the writers started have something to contribute to their standard in quality. Most guys on here, at least to my knowledge, start in here—a place that has little to no semblance in quality control. They go and look at the badass, big-dicked McGee and go "Yo, this shit sells, what if I did it too?". The girls on the other hand come from Wattpad, where the algorithm is so little to non-existent that they have to at least think of what they type for a semblance of traction.

                                          So much so that they often become verbose, though that's a topic for another time.

                                          That's just how I see it, though.

                                            As for my opinion: most of the context of the difference of both flavors are already explained above so not gonna repeat that and it's damn too long.

                                            Gonna be honest here and blunt here, a hate feminist genres and face slapping harems and it was never a competition of gender equality.

                                            And this thread itself is really worthless in my opinion. You really cannot make that perfect formula in writing since each writer and reader has different behaviours and tastes when it comes to it.

                                            I read a book. MC faces the enemy and is unsure of what to do?

                                            Male comment - problem = the enemy - kill him/special jail holding enemy for eternity -> problem solved
                                            Female comment - Don't kill/hurt him back, even if the enemy will come back, it will affect MC emotionally and he will no longer be the same. (special jail holding enemy for eternity also exists here at times)

                                            One solves the problem and prevent it from popping up in future, (problem-solving mentality as the priority),
                                            Other makes sure that at the end of the day when there is no problem, MC can live with himself (emotional aspect as the priority).

                                            The way I see it female books delve more into emotional and more often than not enemy is somewhat converted no violence (ruthlessness). Needs more detail and character analysis for the change to be effective (+magical fairy takes care of ruthless enemy's future plans and makes him easily accept the peaceful way) and leads to the desired ending.

                                            Guys books deal with current and the future problem with violence first (most cases) (+ magical fairy fix the emotional aspects ) leads to the desired ending.

                                            Hard to tell which path makes the better story, it is based on personal preference.

                                            Ps, this is my opinion generalized based on limited reading...

                                            Veronica8

                                            Veronica8 This was one of the story premise I wrote that didn't test well.

                                            How the heck did that no do well? That is soo interesting. Did you purposely hide most of the chapters while publishing it? Otherwise, it is impossible for that to not sell. Just that short excerpt is hella interesting in my opinion.

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