Webnovel.Forum

Hello everyone,

i would really like some feedback on my thoughts regarding some of my favourite novels going premium left and right. Im not plugged into current events so if someone already discussed this in-depth please link me the thread.

So, here it goes:

1. Every novel, its dog and the dogs best friend is going premium.

2. This is not a bad thing in and of itself, authors wanna get paid, right?

3. Great idea, shitty implementation and bad long-term consequences for everyone involved and here is why (imho):

3.1. SS-cost by word count.

This is self-explanatory. You write more, you getto demand more SS for your chapters. Problem is that this method of paying the author actually rewards word-padding and the 4 apocalyptic cancers of every LN i eventually dropped:

3.1.1 Repeating themselves over and over again/sometimes just rehashing the same sentence.
3.1.2. People react to MC being strong/soon fighting someone they perceive out of their league/winning against them.
3.1.3. Regurgitating something earlier said (last chapter or so) from a different POV without adding anything valuable by using that POV.
3.1.4. People POTENTIALLY reacting ("if he knew this, he would spit out blood") to MC being strong and the author overexplaining basic stuff.

(I realized i am reading mostly the same kind of genre while writing this, replace these points for your least favourite word-padding styles)

I think you get what im getting at.

I get that reading this kinda stuff does add some satisfaction/face-slapping (i love a good faceslap as much as you do) to the experience but some stories take it to the next level and i cant see anyone wanting to pay money to only get half a chapter because the other half is cancer.

This is connected to another problem, namely:

4. Requiring a story to reach a certain word-count/chapter-count/quantitative requirement before going premium.(not sure on that one, correct me if i am wrong)

4.1. This just outright incentivizes the same word-padding methods i pointed out in 3 and is exacerbated by the authors refusal to think long-term. Most new novels i read on this site tend to go premium/adwall pretty much immediately upon reaching the target requirement to do so. Please correct me if its only the novels i am/was reading, maybe i just have bad taste in authors.

Now i dont want to discuss if a author is entitled to make money of his/her work because im not retarded. Of course you are entitled to that income.

My personal problem with this is not the author receiving some kind of compensation for their work but the kind of expectations that come with the money i spend on your work compared to me getting it for free.

If i am going to spend money on this website in general and on a novel specifically i am going to choose where to spend it and which novels to cut from my library when they go premium - depending on several factors - one of which is the trust i have in an author to continue a novel to its end.

I dont care what might be said in the reviews or comments by overzealous fans defending their favourite story needlessly, reality is just that most novels dont get finished(or at least their translation doesnt?). If i spent money on purchasing the chapters of that story i invested that money in expectation of getting a pay-off, which is not only the joy of reading a good story but also finishing it eventually.

If that story never ends because it or its translation is dropped i feel cheated out of my money. Now some might argue that i am only entitled to the exact amount of words in the chapter i paid SS for and technically they are right, but in reality that means i am going to become more and more careful about spending those SS which is not something you as an author should want from your readers if you want to maximise your earnings.

If you, the author, word-pad the story just to make it to premium, then paywall-lock that same story which in most cases is in the early stages of character- and story-development (and i have seen this more than noce) that just makes me assume a few things about your attitude dealing with me as a paying reader.

1: Holy shit, this guy wants to make a quick buck. If he had confidence in his story standing on its own he wouldnt cash out at around 100-200 chapters. It reeks of "oh, i am falling off in power-ranking, better cash out on that goodwill/attention before nobody is reading anymore".
2: I dont think this story is going to be finished any time soon which means every chapter i pay is making the (LIGHT-)novel as a whole more expensive in total than some books (and i am talking bestselling books, not novels) on Amazon.
3: If you go premium now and dont make the amount of money you expect because not enough people opt-in, where is my guarantee you will finish what you started?

Bonus point if your author compiled a certain amount of chapters into a pdf-document and put it on Amazon without giving people who paid for it on webnovel already access with some half-baked excuse.
Now i am certain you are just trying to cash out.

Just to reiterate: I am not against authors earning money for their hard work. I am concerned with the kind of ways they turn to to do so and the disregard many seem to have developed for the built-up goodwill they have in the community.

On the other hand, some of the stories i stayed with for the longest time were the ones who threw 500-600 chapters with awesome word-count at me to get me actually hooked and invested in the story itself and the characters in it.
This also built trust: If this guy writes an awesome story for so long no way he is going to quit half-way through, right? (personal reasons or other unpredictable things notwithstanding).

Additionally, the better and more thought-out the story seems the more confidence i have in investing money in it.

All in all imho the current system makes a great enviroment for people hyping up their short-lived premium-cash-cow but does little to reward those writing maybe shorter chapters which read better/have a better story(-progression) with half the words the generic face-slapping BS we get is using.

This will hurt the community,the authors and even Qidian in the long run, assuming all are in this for the long-term benefits. I am sure people will become more careful about where to put their SS or even turn to pirating the chapters (and there are more than enough sites offering just that).

Best solution i can come up with are subscription-models (Think Spotify, Netflix, Amazon prime):

Example 1: Pay 10$ (just an example) a month, get access to 15 (again, just an example) novels of your choosing. Unlimited. No ads. No BS. No word-padding. The money gets divided between the authors/translators/editors of the novels you choose in either a set ratio or a ratio you can adjust.

Oh, this author released 10 chapters with the combined content of 3? Less money for the author.
This one releases 3 awesome chapters with great writing and developments? More money for the author.
Your translator is bad? Less money for the translator until he learns the ropes and so on.

Also Qidian gets a cut i guess.

This can scale up with money and amount of novels available.

Problems with this kind of system i could think of:

1. If you write stuff your audience does not like you might get less money and it might be hard to find out why. Is my story bad or is my audience not patient enough to appreciate a good set-up? Polls and comments might be a solution here, but this brings us to...well point 2:

2. Authors are artists. If they start to pander to the audience as to get a higher payout are they not compromising on their artistic integrity?

I thought about these 2 points long and hard, then realized: Thats already where we are right now, just with SS per words instead of a subscription which i can allocate as i want. Except with SS i have to pay beforehand just to find out its filler.

In conclusion, and i just think every novel new novel on this site going premium in a way that makes me regret ever spending time to start reading it just proves my point: There is nothing worse for someone who relies on a community to make their living than to treat this very community like idiots or freeloaders, and the more authors are starting to think and act that way the more people are going to opt-out of this.

I would love to write some more about why SS generally are bad and some other stuff, but honestly? Im hungry and going to lunch now. Also i am afraid nobody is going to read this because its become to long.

Do you have any thoughts on all this or am i blatanly wrong in some or all my assumptions/conclusions?
I would love to read from you.

As for me? I am going to stay on webnovel.com, read the stories i consider worth my time, drop the rest and argue and bitch in the comments as usual. See you soon!

TL;DR: Mass release when?

When a novel goes premium, it is guaranteed that it would be finished, in the case of originals that is...

Lagrange7 I kind of cut out at the part where you started talking about subscriptions. I think we all have a few ideas we think are good, so I'm not going to bother with that for now.

My personal take on it all is somewhat simple. This paywall stuff is going to be a flop overall, but it will make some money before it kills itself. As long-term goals go, it's a complete failure, and I dislike it. However, as a short-term, money maker, it will have some success. Whether it's great success or minor success, only time will tell.
With that said, I don't expect I'll ever be paying for it either way because, as you stated, the quality is not worth it.

TheAdventurer Someone's been lying to you. In life, the only guarantee is death. And even that, I wouldn't actually guarantee.

lozlo this paywall im sorry but its not gonna fall coz there are alot of ppl that can pay more then 100USD a month to read that they like...u can look at the patreons from evry novel the donation that other sites get and u will see there are alot of money trown in this that it can survive a long time.
The only thing i think for free users are if these will be made in a book and sold as a hole... the price would be more acceptable if not there will be alot of ppl that will pirate the shit out of them:)

Ops Indeed, the business model already worked in China yet these know it alls still can't accept reality. Things won't revert to what they used to. The free trial period was way long overdue yet they can't do anything else but complain.

Ops In the short run, sure. But, in the long run? Most of these stories are too crappy. It will have an initial burst, and then it will peter out. As you said, people will pirate the hell out of it. In truth, they're already doing just that. However, this site needs to make very little money to stay afloat, so it's also true that it won't be going anywhere. When I say it will kill itself, I don't mean that it will flat out disappear.

bachingchung I don't know what reality it is you think people need to accept, but I don't need things to revert, nor do I expect them to. I'm perfectly capable of reading any of the stories here already. But I'm still going to call a spade a spade. What I do find amusing though, is you whining about other people whining. Good job.

In my preference I wish the prices for spirit stones would drop down a bit. It’s to expensive to buy depending on your budget

Since I have written about this at various locations of this forum, I repeat - ITS A HUMONGOUS RIP OFF AND TOO COSTLY. QIDAN must come up with a friendlier solution now that is mutually beneficially - face or no face its called restructuring and being customer friendly, I am not spending over US$100 for an incomplete novel/s when I can several complete books at that price, regardless of their expenses which includes paying the authors.

Note: I'm not defending or supporting the model in my below argument. I'm just pointing out that a lot of people seem to be closing their eyes to the obvious.
To all those predicting the model will fail, I frankly think you have no idea what you're talking about. The model has already been proven in China, though at a much lower cost. Even if we discount that, it seems to me like the model is working here as well. Otherwise, why would all the top novels remain on top after going premium? I understand hating the model in the same way I hate video game micro-transactions. Does anything in the gaming industry come even close to the hate micro-transactions get? Yet, look at how successful they are. Micro-transactions make tons of money off those that are willing to pay for it when compared to free games that rely on advertisements. Spirit Stones are just the micro-transactions of the novel industry. Most people hate the idea of them, but they are widely successful nonetheless. I don't know why everyone likes to pretend they will cause the website to fail.

SnoozySloth I question the truth of the top novels anyway. I have almost no interest in the novels that are consistently in the top 3. So, I'm either a major outlier in regards to... Oh right, I am. Well, that's one problem solved.
Different definitions of failing. When I say they're going to flop, that is almost solely based on their overpricing of low quality, shotty translated novels. It's not so much the paywall as it is the price they want for those novels. And the fact that you can't trust anything they say because their word is worthless. Any promise they make you today can be broken tomorrow.
But none of that means they're going to go out of business. They have a low-cost business model, so I'm sure they'll be able to maintain it for quite a long time unless there is some kind of drastic change.

lozlo Whats your proposal on how to handle this? If paying for SS is too much and Subscription is not an option for you, how do you think we should pay the authors?

In my opinion just let the author decide how many SS they will charge for each chapter of his novel
You know only the author know the best about his novel worth
Qidian can just take 10% of the author earning

I mean i doubt people will paid 4 spirit stones for my shitty quality novel each chapter
If i can reduce it into 1 spirit stones, it's still doable because i think people still willing to spend at least 1 spirit stone to read that shit if the plot are interesting enough

Lagrange7 I actually don't hate the paywall in theory. It's the price and the quality of the product that is the biggest concern. I tend to be fond of the general story in certain novels. But, unfortunately, those authors are masters in the Dao of fluff. I swear, Er Gen, Cocooned Cow, and some of the others can turn a single paragraph into 3 chapters. Maybe more. And I'm not paying $1 per paragraph. So I don't even read their novels anymore. I quit reading Er Gen novels when they were still free on other sites.

For the subscription... With the number of novels out there, splitting a subscription fee would be a nightmare. It would also be a pain picking the novels you wanted to read for that month. And it's slow money. Let me put it this way. There is a reason a lot of online games veer towards micro-transactions. Subscriptions don't work out as well in the long run for a lot of reasons.
As for which one I like... I never stop to think about it. Every system has its strengths and weaknesses. For me to like either, I have to see a benefit that is worthy of the price. And I don't see that in any system here because of the quality of the product in question.

We should clarify something though. This isn't about paying the authors. They got paid when they released it in their native language. Though they should naturally receive something from this as well. This is about paying the translators and possibly the editors. More precisely, this is about Qidian making sure they can take the lions portion of the money made while still tossing out some scraps to the people who actually did the work.

lozlo Your right about that, authors should be as concise as possible without adding unnecessary words to the story that would increase the cost of the chapter.

lozlo Ok, guess we are on the same page regarding quality then. As cynical as this sounds: at some point you just know what to expect of certain authors/stories. On the other hand being forced to pay SS before knowing how good that chapter is is a major reason i am against it. You are buying the cat in the sack basically.

Regarding subscription: I dont know if i understand what you mean regarding the work of splitting the sub-fee. SS are worth like what, some cents each? I dont think it amounts to much more work serverside. Agree on the "subs fail in the long run" argument tho, havent thought of it. But on the other hand i dont know of a sub-model in literature (except magazines and those are not a continuous story). Games are another thing. Subscription on games does not work because the game-model or the graphics or sth. else becomes outdated. That is not a problem with light novels.

Thanks for clarifying the part about the authors and translators tho. Was wondering if authors still get a cut from this site if its only translated...

Qidian is a story in itself i suppose. I think everything that can be said has been said in that regard...

lozlo it's because it became so annoying already this have been going on for 2 mos now and you d!ckwads seems to see it as something new. Get used to it already ffs. Every fvcking day there will be 5 threads about the same sh!t, there's an existing thread alreaady just post there no need to add more drama since it won't make any difference. WN will still and always will ignore you.

bachingchung Cool story bro. Try taking your own advice.

bachingchung Have you ever thought of some people actually not being on this site for a month or two? To some this IS actually new.

Not to me tho, i just like to take my time to put my opinion about things together.

lozlo Considering the author doesnt get anything when we use free SS to pay him i think this system is kinda ripping the author off. Most seem to be fine with it tho, which is kinda sad tbh.

Regarding splitting the sub-amount per month: I was thinking to about an even split between novels with minimum amounts. Basically, every author gets SOME money, but you can use a slider or just put in % to allocate an author more or less. If authors try to abuse this system by releasing less chapters readers would use their "slots" on other novels and the author gets nothing or a very small amount of money. If the novel sucks same. If your story is awesome and has a stable release people will probably want to reward you for it, making you earn more money and having time to focus on the novel. Its a virtuous cycle, the opposite of the "RELEASE ALL THE TIME AND BEG FOR DEM POWASTONES OR DROP IN RANKING AND FADE TO OBSCURITY"- mode of operation we have right now. Its just not a good enviroment to create a literary work of art is what im saying.

On the other hand my proposal would give more control to the readers while ending the current system of buying chapters which might or might not be filler. If you want more novels to read you can either upgrade your subscription-level or purchase single "slots" which come at a fraction of the price of an upgrade. This way you pay a minimum amount (smallest subscription) towards the authors while still maintaining the flexibility to add more novels at a reasonable price.

I guess you are right, most subscription games i know off have some kind of ingame-cash-shop.
We also have that with gifting the author, except we dont get jack in return...its kinda like a black hole for SS with nothing in return? A few hours or so earlier access to chapters in return or anything at all wouldve been nice...

Are these comments? Or some novel chapters?

Lagrange7 Well, first of all, you have to understand that, as I said before, the author got their money when they released it in their original language. The authors of these novels should be secondary at this point. It's the translators, and maybe editors, that are getting cheated 100%.
Second of all, you're speaking about an old community. People have been translating this stuff for free for years, which is why it's even popular in the first place and part of why I say the translators are the ones getting cheated. The Chinese authors and Qidian did jack shit to create or support this community. Qidian just swooped in and bullied their way into claiming some profit while destroying a system that, if there weren't too stupid to take advantage of, probably could have netted them far more money. I don't even remember what my second point was now... lol...

As for the ideas. They all have their benefits and losses. In the long run, the paywall probably makes the most, but I question how much it will really make with the overpriced SS they have now. They're basically begging people to pirate it with these prices. And their wish has been granted as far as I know.

I guess in that aspect games are a little different. Games NEED more players, even if they aren't paying, because the players who are paying don't want to play alone. They need to form parties, and they need to have people to compete with. Possibly even people to show off what they blew last weeks paycheck on, lol.
Novels don't need that. They do need publicity though. So maybe it's a toss up?

DrunkenShadow We're practicing our poetry skills bro. You should join us. Write us a poem.

lozlo

Ok i guess i didnt consider the long history of haphazardly translated novels on obscure websites. Thats actually how i found and got into light novels in the first place, lol.

Yeah, the more and more i read about Qidians business-practices (if you can call them that) the less i like them.

EA of light novels i suppose...

Lagrange7 nah, the main problem root from ignorance and not reading the announcements. I'm already aware that this will happen a while ago since WN is on the stage of infancy, they considered it as a promo period. Then the successful novels will be Ad walled, premium then fully pay walled. I think it was on FAQs or BoA. So it's not surprising. Yet a lot of people still post the same sh!t everyday, typical. All rant yet they never bother to read the forums. Besides there are a lot of solutions posted to the older threads already, they are being highlighted till now.

lozlo The authors of these novels should be secondary at this point.

It depends on the contract. If they sold the rights of their novels to QI then yeah, but since those authors could still call some shots, it's safe to assume that they have royalty based contracts. As long as QI make money out of their novels, they are legally obliged to pay them. So you can't really put them before TLs and EDs.

bachingchung That's why I say secondary and not that they are completely unrelated. It's still their work, and they should receive something for it. But the people who worked to get it here in English are the translators, not Qidian and not the authors. Of course, there is an issue regarding contracts, so there is a lot to take into account depending on the terms of that contract. But, even so, the authors should be second. Their books are worthless here without translators. Much like how authors use to be nothing without a publisher and an editor. I believe that has changed over the years, but that's just a guess after considering amazon, kindle, etc. Even now, authors are probably still second place, but it's probably not as bad as it was in the past.
But, I guess with all that said, popular authors are a different story. They do get to throw their weight around, even in places they shouldn't have weight to throw. And, some of these authors ARE quite popular in China and in this... community?

WigglerGod Yeah, thats what i often read and the reason i was proposing a premium model with variable amounts. People are ready to pay for their entertainment, but they will never be willing to get screwed over for it (dont factcheck that).

lozlo the previous translators were doing it as a hobby with around 2-5 chapters a week, that's why QI contracted these TLs and EDs for a steady pay and stable 7-14 ch/wk. Even back then these TLs have reserved or lock chapters that could be seen through paid subscription. Everyone kept praising the old Patreon pages when $ 1 could only make you read 2-5 chapters ahead per month. depends on the translator. Some translators don't even translate unless the donation pool is filled.

bachingchung we aren't in China, look at YOUR reality

bachingchung What you don't seem to understand is that, we don't HAVE to get used to anything, also respect goes both ways okay

sinx facepalm you're hopeless.

bachingchung I don't believe for a second that they did it for those reasons. However, it is true that there are a lot more novels out, and some of the projects are coming out faster. So there are upsides.
As for those locked chapters via patreon. That's true, but they had a more involved system than what you're mentioning. The good ones released more chapters per week/day according to the total donations, on top of giving early access. And, the ones that did that really raked in some money. Also, those are the projects they went after first. But, nothing in life is simple, so I'm sure there are other hidden issues as well.

bachingchung No, i live in a Place called Real World, where Reality exists...

lol! The whole 'well, if I translate it into a different language, I should get that copyright' argument again, only wearing different clothes...

If it was MY work, you'd be hit with a DMCA so fast, your heads would spin and you'd be crying because I would go after every single cent you made off my stuff without my permission. I think WN was being pretty soft and obliging when they officially showed up in the English market. Arrggh...now i want my writer's block back!