• Diss

  • Anyone else dislikes the majority of current harem novels? Cause I do.

I just don't like harem. I mean, given that I only have the social experience and thinking that has been instilled into me I could be bias, but harem just also doesn't truly seem romantic for me either.

Take for example, how romantic is it for the harem girls to always have to share the one guy with others. Can you honestly say that each girl is truly happy and willingly chooses to share the guy with others rather than have him all to themselves?

Taking that aside, my main dislike towards harem is the illogical aspect of how harems are placed into stories. Take Er Gen's novels for example. They always start off as the male MC having a childhood love interest in which serves as their WHOLE REASON for the story in which the MC wants to be strong in order to be with them BUT along the way he meets this beautiful goddess blah blah girl and things happen (accidental rape or girl threatens to kill herself if she isn't with MC or guilt trips MC into loving her) and then when he meets the childhood friend, she just laughs it off and pouts a bit and then holds hands with the other girl and they become sworn sisters sharing that one man. I mean .... I get that it is fantasy but seriously .... I can understand the MC changing his heart and wanting another woman along the way but for the childhood girl to just suddenly accept the MC's other wife upon their first meeting since the beginning of the entire novel?
This story template is like prince charming going to find cinderella and then after finding and proposing to cinderella he tells her "Hey I am so so so happy to finally find you and be together. ..... Oh yeah, I forgot. Along the way, I accidentally slept with and got together with another woman. I also love her and you both. So let's have a happy family together. Be good sisters from now on okay. Thanks."

Also I hate the trope where MC either saves or fights random woman and then she tells MC "No one has ever beaten me before" Or "No one has ever seen my true face before" ... "Therefore, you must MARRY ME! I have always told myself that the first person to ever beat me, I will marry them (or the first person to see my face will be the one I will marry)" MC rejects but then is guilt trip by that woman's constant treat that she has made a vowed to herself and so if the MC doesn't accept her, she will kill herself. In the end, MC accepts her and then suddenly loves her too. I mean ..... if that is how MC is .... how easy it would be to get a spy woman into his harem and then assassinate him. All the woman has to do is be beaten and then threaten him with her life and then BAM he accepts her. Is this still the smart, strong, and ruthless MC that killed entire sects for revenge? MC can kill enemies without blinking but can't stand to watch a woman kill herself because of her own selfish reasoning and therefore you must marry her even though you told your childhood girl that you will one day find her and marry her. Imagine telling that reasoning to her later, "So yeah, she threaten to kill herself if I didn't marry her so I did. But don't worry. I still love you. We can be a happy family of three. Oh, but you can't look at any other guys. It makes me unhappy. From now on, you are mine and can't have any thoughts about anyone else." I swear .... harem makes no sense at all.

Regardless of whether harem stories are right or wrong, at this point, from all the novels I've read so far, all harem and reverse harem stories have been written badly and causes the story to downgrade and ultimately pushes the reader away from the story line.

    I get you honestly it's messed up, how can you say you love someone but still marry someone eles and that still be with the first person it makes absolutely no sense then the craziest part is they see sharing the same person as normal.......like wow

    Just read western novels (just affairs and no harems) and modern setting. Then you will rarely encounter harems. But the best way is to check the tag first.

    Hope this helps!

    jae_thao accidental rape or girl threatens to kill herself if she isn't with MC or guilt trips MC into loving her

    :eyes: Dude. No wonder I don't read harems. The only one I ever checked out was Trinity Seven and that was too weird.

    Is it me, but when I see the word harem I think of Hugh Hefner.

      You know what pisses me most of all about harems? Double standards.

      The guy can sleep around with any number of women and have many wives, but all of them must be pure and lose their virginities only to him alone. They are not allowed to touch any other men - if they do, they are "sluts" and meet grisly fates. Or best of all, if one of the female characters sleeps with another guy, the readers will call her a whore or whatever, scream about NTR and all that nonsense. Yet the readers think it's perfectly fine for the guy to plunge his meatstick into every hole he comes across, and God forbids he chooses to preserve his chastity or refuse to accept beautiful women throwing themselves at him...because if he does that, readers complain that he's a beta loser.

      Now imagine if the story is about a woman who has multiple partners. You can bet your a that the readers will condemn her. Oh, never mind that...if the main character meets a woman who isn't "pure" or isn't a virgin, she's suddenly a thot and the readers will bring out all the "begone, thot!" banners. Yet that never applies to the male main character. I wonder why.

      Or how about readers demanding that the main character put women in their place, but if he so much as respects the women or accedes to their requests, he's suddenly a worthless simp. Because, you know, many male readers believe that respectable alpha males are those who indulge in domestic abuse. No wonder there's so much romanticization of rape flying around.

        Tomoyuki Could you imagine going to any FMC novel and seeing rants about beta FL every time you encounter second male lead syndrome?

        I'm between thinking it might be either oddly satisfying as a display of equality or damn annoying to see alpha/beta everywhere.

            KoraL I can't imagine it. I'm not even sure what beta female lead means or why anyone would call them beta because of second male lead syndrome. Acually, what does second male lead syndrome even mean? Does it mean the second male lead is a simp for chasing after the female main character even though she's clearly in love with the first male lead? Or is it a syndrome where the second male lead always gets rejected even though he's much better than the male lead (first of all, he's not abusive, he doesn't ignore her, and he always helps her whenever she needs it)? Or are readers complaining that the female protagonist is a beta because she refuses to have a harem of rich, handsome men and insists on choosing only one to be her lover? Which makes no sense, because no self-respecting man would ever settle for being part of a harem belonging to what is supposedly an ordinary girl - especially if he's a rich, powerful, handsome CEO who can have any woman he wants. Similarly, one of the things I hate most about harems is how the heroines never respect themselves and denigrate themselves by sharing one man (like, who does that? Have more self-respect, ladies - you deserve better).

            But yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if male readers go in there and call the second male lead a simp.

                This definition

                Tomoyuki Or is it a syndrome where the second male lead always gets rejected even though he's much better than the male lead (first of all, he's not abusive, he doesn't ignore her, and he always helps her whenever she needs it)?

                This interpretation

                Tomoyuki Or are readers complaining that the female protagonist is a beta because she refuses to have a harem of rich, handsome men and insists on choosing only one to be her lover?

                Tomoyuki Which makes no sense, because no self-respecting man would ever settle for being part of a harem

                Right! So why exactly should females always have to be the ones with no self-respect!
                How did it even get to the point of monogamy being unmasculine while being the only acceptable standard for females?

                But to be fair, it always feels like harem stories always have brainless heroines. Or some unexplained skewed gender ratio. Actually most of the time the only character with more than half a brain cell ends up being the MC. Maybe that's why all the girls are with him.

                        I do hate harem it doesn't work in ANY novel I've ever found and it tends to completely ruin ever novel it touches you can have a great novel that has an awesome premise but then the author spends the next 40 chapters having the mc make a harem and have literally no downsides or anything in their way and they end up with a bunch of perfect women or something like that. I go out of my way to avoid all novels with the harem tag. fuck harems.

                          ratted now that I think about it, Seeking Good Temptation was a pretty interesting take on a reverse harem. It was absolutely full of consequences. I think that near the end nobody was really happy.

                            Tbh, when I think about harem, it’s just plain depressing to me. All the men or women in the harem can be with the MC but they can never really ‘have’ them. The idea on monogamy is drilled into my head so much to when I see harems happening, I feel quite uncomfortable and sometimes even disgusted... MC please just stay loyal with one partner and don’t belittle their love for you... (｡-_-｡)

                            KoraL Agreed. In harem stories, the girls behave as if the protagonist is the only guy in the world, and it's disturbing. I wish they would have more self-respect. If a girl has been taken, I'm not going to try to steal her from her boyfriend or husband (force her to break up/divorce just like all those nonsensical son-in-law stories). Like, the sea is so vast, there are so many other fishes, or don't overlook a forest for a single tree. Similarly, girls should just look for other guys who treat them better rather than be obsessed with this single dude who...I don't even know why they are so madly in love with him. It's as if he's the only guy in the world who's nice to them (really?).

                            Most of these guys in son-in-law stories are rich and handsome enough that they can get any girl they want, but they are obsessed over...the protagonist's wife for no reason other than so he has an excuse to beat them up when they lay their hands on his wife, even though in reality no man will lack that much self-respect to go after another guy's wife in such a stupid manner. Similarly, most of these girls are cute/beautiful/talented enough to have any guy they want, so I don't understand why they're obsessed with a plain, often indecisive and unremarkable guy just because he's...nice to them. Or why they are willing to share him - these girls are smart enough to understand their own worth - they can pick any guy who would be willing to devote his life to her alone, but no, they decide to swarm over a single guy and "share" him because...I dunno, it's the ultimate wet dream for the protagonist.

                              I don't get it, you can accept
                              - people flying
                              - turning to beasts
                              - teleportation
                              - creating fire
                              - accept murder/killing
                              - dragons
                              etc.
                              AND YOU DRAW the line on Harem. It is fantasy just go with it. Granted some stories take it too far. But I find the fact that in none harem books where MC takes two FL with him to the end of the plot and tells one FUCK OFF here is my friend as a replacement and get along with him, is much worst. (Author says - suddenly love blossomed between them, please.)
                              It is fantasy - harem, in my opinion, is good, because just as I am picky with ML so am with FL. If I don't like FL or MC picks the wrong one of two (most of the time there are two options) then I just end up quitting. Harem - he picks both. Don't enjoy seeing the first one but at least second is not dumped at the end of the story to his friend.
                              Sometimes I just look for those without FL and romance, if I am looking for pure action-adventure as I don't have to worry about the disappointing end.

                              Also, there is the Affair path MC goes tricks women sleep with them for a while, gets bored come back to FL. How is that a better option?
                              Anyway, a harem is not always done right? But the chances of having a satisfying end is much higher than non-harem that MC takes first pick in the group of girls the remaining ones are picked by his party. Plus I find the fact that people lump rape and other stuff with a harem disappointing. Many books that don't have harem have rape and so does harem book. So why make it a harem problem I don't understand.
                              As for the, how can you think if FLs are happy? Then if we are comparing to real-life divorce rate is 50 percent all books should end with either the couple living happily or divorce in 6 months.
                              It is fantasy... if authors say they are happy, they are happy. If you are going to accept him saying that pigs fly, it is ok to kill, why stop there?

                                It's not the matter of realism. I don't think the lack of realism is the problem - in fact, harems are realistic. Look at the Middle East, or even in history. Nobles had concubines. Sultans have harems of women. Comparing harems to fantasy or flying pigs or magic is just absurd because harems actually do exist in reality. So if you think the issue people have with harems is "lack of realism", you're sorely mistaken.

                                The problem with harem is the sort of values inherent within it. I wouldn't go so far as to say it "promotes" them, but it seems to naturalize the attitude that women are objects or trophies to be added into a man's collection. The harem genre treats women (or men as the case may be, depending on who the protagonist and gender) as objects and with no respect at all. Like these characters exist simply to love the main character. It's degrading and insulting to the poor characters. It's not the matter of realism, but rather the degrading depiction of men/women. Most of all, it's simply poorly written and horribly executed. Women fall for a single guy for no reason other than because he's nice?

                                By the way, the affair path is considered harem. Harem simply refers to any or all stories where the protagonst has multiple relationships with members of the opposite sex (or same sex, depending on the genre). The affair path is yet another reason why people hate harems. Because the protagonist is, quite simply, a scum. Harem doesn't necessarily mean the main character ends up with multiple women by the end of the story. There's a reason why manga like Nisekoi are considered harem. The harem genre simply refers to a story where a single person is surrounded by multiple (usually 3 or more, 2 is just love triangles and drama, and isn't considered harem) characters who are romantically in love with him/her. Whether he/she ends up with only one of them is irrelevant.

                                Now if you have a series like Kimi no Iru Machi, that's not exactly harem because it's not like there are multiple women in love with Haruto at once, unlike in Nisekoi where you have 4 or more heroines competing for Raku's affections. But Kimi no Iru Machi is not an affair story either - just because Haruto dates Asuka before getting back with Yuzuki doesn't mean he had an affair. It's a realistic portrayal of life where normal people (unlike harem protagonists) have several relationships throughout their life. Most people will form relationships, break up, and then date another person again. That's not an affair. However, the affair that SecretWolf mentions is precisely the tripe produced out of harem novels where all the women in the story want to sleep with the male protagonist because he...I don't know. Sometimes he's not even a chad but just an indecisive scum who goes with the flow. Yet they are all attracted to him for some reason. Another example of poor execution. It's not realism, but if the readers can't be convinced that the girls like the guy according to the rules established by the world in that story, then they will find the whole thing ridiculous.

                                Now, will men who read harem novels suddenly turn into cheating tyrants who abuse women or cruelly lead them on? I hope not. Such a claim is as dumb as nonsensical claims about gamers being more prone to murdering people with guns just because they play shooters. Or increase in violence just because people watch action movies. However, when you start seeing readers' comments where they call women "sluts" for not being virgins (and thus have no right to be part of the harem) or accusing men of being "simps" just because they respect women and accede to their requests, you get the feeling that there is some sort of negative influence at play here. As in, the normalization of insidious attitudes that are far subtler than "he's going to become a murderer because he plays Call of Duty!"

                                  Tomoyuki Thanks I can see where you are coming from and I understand your points.

                                  When you look at it through such lense, it indeed does not paint a pretty picture. But there is also more at play here.
                                  Then shouldn't we also consider the fact that violence is also normalized here and similarly affects people? similar comments if MC lets an enemy survive. (calling him coward, stupid etc.)

                                  Other ideas such as
                                  - dangerous adventures always bear fruits
                                  - Mc is always right
                                  - how morality is twisted for many of MC's actions
                                  - Idea of perfect love (finding perfect fairy's no problem with them or their relationships)

                                  And romance stories, how one of them only lives for the other one and the idea of such sacrifice as a test for love.

                                  The reality is everything is exaggerated and all stories have more things wrong with them then right. Does objectification happen only in Harem? No - most stories objectify either gender based on the MC's gender and genre.

                                  What about the objectification of life, from killing 1 to millions of people are accepted as long as the MC has a reason? so then shouldn't we also hate Action for this reason?

                                  Honestly going by the comments any action of MC will be met by someone's hate because it does not make sense to them. Again comment such as the "Slut" etc. has nothing to do with the genre, but the people's opinion or the authors choice in plot and should not be a reason to judge a genre by it. If the setting is the olden times where virginity was important, then like you said people will judge it based on that. Is it wrong yes, but is it wrong in that setting, time and the world then only the author and plot can tell you that.

                                  What I do agree with is that characters are poorly written at times and it takes away from the story as the reason for people to follow MC is simply that he/she is MC. I would not care about the number of harem members as long it suits the plot, setting, world and laws of the story. Is many members going to take away from deep character development that happens with a few of them? Yes. But I am not simply going to hate it for that. like you pointed out, harem has happened in the past and is happening currently, so I don't think there is a reason to fault it in a fantasy story when the setting, time and plot matches it.

                                  I think when we turn a blind eye to so many other problems of killing, flying, magic etc. Harem should not be the only areas you shine a light at. Either put it everywhere or don't bother. If an author puts non virgin person and someone calls the member "slut" and you don't encourage the author for making it realistic then you are just encouraging him to continue on that path and make his story how the people want. All he has to do is add an extra sentence to make the change.

                                  Don't blame all the problems on Harem, because there are good ones and bad ones like every other genre and if you are going to not read it just because then you are letting those that read it define its direction. Harem has bases in real life so it should be more acceptable than other genres and the fact that only one side has a major say in it, it is in its current form that people have an aversion towards.

                                  My problem is with people that say, "I hate harem and will never read it," Then why should it have all the things that you want when you are not planning to read it. If you are not willing to read it why should any Author care about your opinion?

                                  My personal opinion is, it is Fantasy accept the direction it is going, and judge it based on the setting. If it matches the setting then the author is doing what he/she promised. If there is a huge mismatch then pointed it out, but you can't judge the relationship based on this world's standards while accepting their immortal lives/magic and other fantasy elements,

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